Shoot the tires! (Read 17488 times)

ren

Deeds Not Words

dirsh

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 10:41:26 PM »
Lol I saw that
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hvybarrels

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 11:45:20 PM »
That guy's choice actually inspires confidence. If Drinky McSwervey had jumped a curb and taken out some tourist family the officer probably would never have been able to forgive himself.
I’m becoming clinically undepressed and thinking about beginning it all.

edster48

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 07:26:49 PM »
I'm going to have to take the other side in this instance.

The last time I checked neither drunk driving, resisting arrest or fleeing the scene of an accident are capitol offenses. I also don't believe that the possibility that you "could" do something to injure someone else justifies the use of deadly force. Were any of us to do the same thing, and in our own defense state that " well, he COULD have hurt or killed someone, I was trying to save lives" do you honestly think  we wouldn't go to prison?

In the video clip that I saw the guy seemed to be trying to get away from the officer. The officer was chasing the vehicle on foot, placing HIMSELF in danger. Was his radio not working? I mean come on, most of us have seen traffic stops in Waikiki. Someone making illegal left turn gets pulled over and is surrounded by 8 cops and 7 cars within 30 seconds. This guy couldn't have used his radio to bring in some back up and have another car or two block the guy in a little further down the road?

BS

Please understand, I'm not saying the driver was right nor am I promoting drunk driving. This guy certainly deserved to go to jail. My point is that I don't think this guy deserved to be shot 5 times and killed for it. Further, if we hold law enforcement to a different standard in regards to use of deadly force, IE. He/she COULD HAVE hurt someone. How long before this power is abused? Police here and across the nation have become more willing to abuse their power. Should we have to live in fear that the next time we get pulled over for speeding or some other infraction that we could be shot because of a nebulous perceived threat that the officer felt?

A lot of you guys know me. I don't think any you of consider me a shrinking violet, there are certainly people that deserve to be shot and killed for the crimes they have committed.
Wait, let's look at that last statement again, crimes they have COMMITTED. Not crimes they COULD HAVE COMMITTED.

I  just don't think this guy was one of them. I think the officer had other options at his disposal and made questionable choices.
Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

Kingkeoni

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 08:12:38 PM »

The last time I checked neither drunk driving, resisting arrest or fleeing the scene of an accident are capitol offenses. I also don't believe that the possibility that you "could" do something to injure someone else justifies the use of deadly force.

Were any of us to do the same thing, and in our own defense state that " well, he COULD have hurt or killed someone, I was trying to save lives" do you honestly think  we wouldn't go to prison?
Police officers need to be held to the same standard as the average citizen. This officer was 100% wrong and should be tried for murder.


Further, if we hold law enforcement to a different standard in regards to use of deadly force, IE. He/she COULD HAVE hurt someone. How long before this power is abused?
It already is. Just read the news. Nationwide, LEO's believe they're above the law and as long as their agencies or departments back up their bad decisions, it will only get worse.

Should we have to live in fear that the next time we get pulled over for speeding or some other infraction that we could be shot because of a nebulous perceived threat that the officer felt?  Yes, it's a very real threat. The fact that your life is in the hands of a local overseers mood at the moment.

A lot of you guys know me. I don't think any you of consider me a shrinking violet, there are certainly people that deserve to be shot and killed for the crimes they have committed.
Wait, let's look at that last statement again, crimes they have COMMITTED. Not crimes they COULD HAVE COMMITTED.

I  just don't think this guy was one of them. I think the officer had other options at his disposal and made questionable choices. a wrong and unlawful decision.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Day Day

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 11:05:06 PM »
Some of you are quick to Monday morning quarterback from the comfort of your safe, well armed homes about a decision an officer had to make in a split second under duress. Some of you are saying he made the wrong or even an illegal choice but I bet if that drunken idiot ran over and splattered a couple of innocent children or one of your kids, you would also be the first to say "why didn't the cop shoot that guy"  or "see if Hawaii was a CCW state one of  us could have stopped him before his drunk ass caused all that carnage".  This a-hole was definitely a threat to innocent lives and was trying to evade the police by any means necessary and proved his intent by his actions.

hvybarrels

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2014, 12:56:00 AM »
A car is a weapon. If I kill a home invader in a defensive shooting then I don't want to be judged on the assumption that the guy might have only been using his weapon to threaten and not kill. The standard is the threat of bodily harm  or death (not rape in this case) and the officer acted accordingly.,
I’m becoming clinically undepressed and thinking about beginning it all.

edster48

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2014, 07:57:31 AM »
Some of you are quick to Monday morning quarterback from the comfort of your safe, well armed homes about a decision an officer had to make in a split second under duress. Some of you are saying he made the wrong or even an illegal choice but I bet if that drunken idiot ran over and splattered a couple of innocent children or one of your kids, you would also be the first to say "why didn't the cop shoot that guy"  or "see if Hawaii was a CCW state one of  us could have stopped him before his drunk ass caused all that carnage".  This a-hole was definitely a threat to innocent lives and was trying to evade the police by any means necessary and proved his intent by his actions.

Yep, you're right. I stand corrected. In fact, since all drunk drivers are capable of "all that carnage" and are "definitely a threat to innocent lives" they should ALL be shot on the spot.

Big time saver.
Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

Kingkeoni

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2014, 10:45:12 AM »
Yep, you're right. I stand corrected. In fact, since all drunk drivers are capable of "all that carnage" and are "definitely a threat to innocent lives" they should ALL be shot on the spot.

Big time saver.

Let's go ahead and add every Caucasian, Polynesian, black person, etc... Since they are technically capable of crimes simply because of their ethnicity.

Everyone that has been convicted of a crime of violence should be killed because statistically they are more prone to violence.

Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

ren

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2014, 10:59:29 AM »
I wonder how hard it is to shoot tires out...perhaps this could be done at the next HDF event? I'd participate. Anyone got a tire commonly used by criminals? A scary, black assault tire? I know there are a lot of people who got ran over by a tire before.
Deeds Not Words

one2boost

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2014, 11:16:18 AM »
Maybe they should have a law to make it illegal to operate a vehicle while consuming and/or under the influence of alcohol.  Then none of this stuff will ever happen again...

Rocky

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2014, 11:46:43 AM »
I shot the perp because he spat on the ground and he COULD have STD's

I've watched the video over and over.

Cop at vehicle behind bus.
He reaches in with right hand, then pulls something from hip with left hand and sticks it into car
Driver makes U-turn. Cop is never in front of vehicle but may have placed himself in jeapordy by hanging onto car.
Cop pursues on foot with something in each hand.
Vehicle hits post and that is where it stops.
footage ends

 I never hear a gunshot during the footage sooooooooooo...
1) cop fired while vehicle was still behind the bus and you don't hear shots because they were fired while inside the car
2) cop fired AFTER vehicle is stopped by post and after footage ends.
3) blame the guy overheard telling the cop to "shoot him".

Seems to be alot more of this happening all over.
Agreed there are good and bad employees in all jobs, but when the powers that be (and you pay) support decisions and actions wether right or wrong "from the comfort of your safe, well armed homes"  is where we may all be confined to.   :shake:

“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

Surf

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2014, 02:37:45 PM »
Taking a stance on a topic like this with less than all of the information is unwise.  Relying on anything reported by a news agency is similarly ignorant.  Lets see, decorated veteran Officer, decorated veteran with the military with multiple combat deployments, assigned to a select unit due to merit of his career performance.  Lets take into account who gets briefed and how the investigation ensues.  Supervisor on scene (Sgt), watch commander on scene (LT), District commanders on scene (CPT / Major), Professional Standards Office (formerly IA) on scene, takes over investigation, Detectives on scene, Prosecutors Office on scene, which included #1 himself Keith Kaneshiro who was on scene, briefed and provided oversight into the investigation.  Scene processed, witness, video, etc, etc....  100% concurrence by all involved / briefed that the incident was justified use of Force.  That is also not just HPD.  One might conclude that it is all City related, but the FBI takes very close oversight on local Law Enforcement and they are also indirectly involved at this point.  If the Feds feel there is any wrong doing they will step in and take over the investigation.  Your not going to hear a peep out of the FBI and they are anxious to get involved cases involving wrong doing.  That is how many agents make their name.

So I guess if all of those really smart people with combined decades of experience in these matters, with ALL of the first hand information / witness accounts / evidence come to the same conclusion, I guess we should go with the Monday morning quarterbacking that happens on a web forum.  Uhh, not.     

There is A LOT of information that those commenting here do not have access to.  Keep in mind there is much more to this incident than the news story relay.  I would bet a paycheck that if every individual here had all of the information, there would likely not be a single person commenting here NOT in agreement with the decision made by that Officer.     
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 02:43:28 PM by Surf »

passivekinetic

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2014, 02:45:41 PM »
Everything you said makes perfect sense, but one thing is missing.

Public confidence in authorities is not exactly at a record high, thanks especially to the actions of some bad egg LEOs in various places and times in recent years.
"The sheep fear sheepdogs, because they fail to see the wolves."
- Anonymous

ren

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2014, 03:47:44 PM »
I apologize that this thread has taken some unexpected turns...I just wanted to point out the public's misperception of how shooting tires only work in movies with some CGI !!!!!
Deeds Not Words

Heavies

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2014, 04:13:14 PM »
I would not take a stance either for nor against the incident,  because as correctly stated, I simply do not have all of the story.  However, I do find it kind of alarming that there are sooo many incidents of officers shooting unarmed motorists dead, while when there is an armed killer motorist rampaging down the freeway actually shooting out of the moving vehicle,  they capture those, basically unharmed and unshot.   

But then again, I don't have that whole story either. ......

Rocky

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2014, 04:14:14 PM »
so when were the shots fired ?
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

Jl808

Shoot the tires!
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2014, 04:24:34 PM »
I believe the shots were fired sometime after the footage ends.
I think, therefore I am armed.
NRA Life Patron member, HRA Life member, HiFiCo Life Member, HDF member

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ren

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2014, 04:52:55 PM »
CGI !!!!! CGI!!!!!
Deeds Not Words

edster48

Re: Shoot the tires!
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2014, 08:44:19 PM »
Taking a stance on a topic like this with less than all of the information is unwise.  Relying on anything reported by a news agency is similarly ignorant.  Lets see, decorated veteran Officer, decorated veteran with the military with multiple combat deployments, assigned to a select unit due to merit of his career performance.  Lets take into account who gets briefed and how the investigation ensues.  Supervisor on scene (Sgt), watch commander on scene (LT), District commanders on scene (CPT / Major), Professional Standards Office (formerly IA) on scene, takes over investigation, Detectives on scene, Prosecutors Office on scene, which included #1 himself Keith Kaneshiro who was on scene, briefed and provided oversight into the investigation.  Scene processed, witness, video, etc, etc....  100% concurrence by all involved / briefed that the incident was justified use of Force.  That is also not just HPD.  One might conclude that it is all City related, but the FBI takes very close oversight on local Law Enforcement and they are also indirectly involved at this point.  If the Feds feel there is any wrong doing they will step in and take over the investigation.  Your not going to hear a peep out of the FBI and they are anxious to get involved cases involving wrong doing.  That is how many agents make their name.

So I guess if all of those really smart people with combined decades of experience in these matters, with ALL of the first hand information / witness accounts / evidence come to the same conclusion, I guess we should go with the Monday morning quarterbacking that happens on a web forum.  Uhh, not.     

There is A LOT of information that those commenting here do not have access to.  Keep in mind there is much more to this incident than the news story relay.  I would bet a paycheck that if every individual here had all of the information, there would likely not be a single person commenting here NOT in agreement with the decision made by that Officer.     

Hey surf, I wasn't trying to put down cops in general. They have a difficult job and for the most part do it quite well. I just feel that in this particular instance the officer made some questionable choices.

You share an obviously intimate knowledge of how the investigation should progress, but a picture is worth a thousand words. The chain of command and most especially the city have a vested interest in finding the shoot justified. If it's not, in an election year no less, the proverbial fecal matter will hit the fan. Not good news for the department or the city.

Also, the fact the officer is "highly decorated" is really irrelevant. Just today I read about one of the officers from the shootout in Kahala that had been awarded the highest honor the department has to give being arrested for kidnapping and sexual assault. Even officers that have done great service in the past aren't immune to making mistakes.

That was really my point. From what I saw in the video it seemed to me that the officer made some poor choices.

Sticking his arm into the vehicle. He's lucky the guy didn't grab his arm, roll up  the window and drag his ass down the street.

Hanging on to the vehicle after it started moving. He endangered himself there, he's lucky he was able to stay on his feet and not get run over. This wasn't the drivers fault.

Pursuing the vehicle on foot. No idea what he was trying to accomplish there. Maybe he thought he could tase and disable the car?

Failure to use his radio to call in backup. As I said in my original post, many of us have seen traffic stops in Waikiki where 3 to 5 cars show up almost instantly. Or is this just reserved for hot chicks? Had he done this, they could've allowed the guy to move on to an area less congested with pedestrians and stopped him using their cars. A little body damage to a couple of cruisers, nobody dead.

I won't even go into the possibility of innocent bystanders being hurt by ricochets or over penetration when he discharged his weapon on a crowded street.

As far as I can see, with the information available, unless the driver was threatening the officer with a gun or a bomb, he didn't need to be shot 5 times and killed. If this was the case, I think it would've been all over the news by now.

Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.