There is no rational reason [...]

Well, there is the weak link in our arguments. We would hope (and, I believe, legitimately expect) that legislators would use rationality as the basis for their public policy and law-making decisions, but that often is not the case. Re "shall issue" CCW in Hawaii it's not likely much rationality and evidence (that will withstand critical scrutiny) will be presented by legislators doing everything possible to obstruct the possible court-mandated right to bear arms without "special case" status, i.e. "self-defense" would be an adequate reason for our masters to allow us to exercise our natural, civil, inalienable, fundamental, individual, Constitutionally-guaranteed right(s). These legislators are either ill-informed, misinformed, or know perfectly well what they are doing in attempting to institute laws shaping the society they envision (that's another thread...). Please encourage people you know to vote for someone with at least a modicum of respect for the Constitution and individual liberty and responsibility.

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/

The majority of those studies were authored by anti-gun physician David Hemenway, who has made his life career by receiving funding to come up with his forgone conclusion that "guns are bad". The other studies listed were authored by at least one or more of Hemenway's co-authors, who have learned from Hemenway how to board the gravy train of "guns are bad" research. The problem(s) of course are that statistical manipulation to achieve a predetermined result is not really "research", it's propaganda. You can read criticisms of Hemenway's work by various authors. You can also read work by John Lott and Don Kates (http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf), among others, that come to different conclusions (i.e. no correlation, much less causation) about the prevalence of guns and suicide.

I think I would have to agree that CCW probably wouldn't affect the suicide rate significantly. Maybe a few more people would do it but perhaps not statistically significant. I do believe there was a study that showed if a firearm was present that people had higher rates of suicide however CCW might not not affect it since anyone who CCW is by default already owning a gun.

Ok, here is a link summarizing a number of studies on the subject. It appears consistent that suicide rates are higher in states with higher rates of gun ownership.  One study did show that gun owners weren't more suicidal than non gun owners but equal which would suggest that the availability of the gun plays a big role and its not that us gun owners are just more crazy or depressed or poor etc etc.
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/firearms-research/gun-ownership-and-use/
This does make sense for two main reasons that I can think of right now.
First is that a firearm ends up being a more effective form of suicide wherase many other people who attempt can be saved with timely intervention. Someone taking pills might survive by having their stomachs pumped for example.
The second is that having a firearm present translates into the means being readily available so someone has less time to change their mind. Going and finding a tall building to jump off of requires more time and effort where someone might change there mind or be stopped for example.
I guess a third might be that a firearm is easier in the sense that it is over very quickly and probably painlessly. Cutting oneself, I believe, is harder to do since you will be feeling the pain.


As for the officer drinking when he shot himself accidentally I had heard that from someone who knew him. I haven't seen an independant verification of just how much he did have to drink. I could imagine a specific alcohol level become part of the law but that would make it more complicated since the law would then need something to compell a person to submit a sample as does the DUI law. Maybe 0.05% would be fair since that is the rate you can be arrested for DUI if you ended up in an accident. I think for comercial license holders their license requires they not blow above 0.02%

First, Harvard's Injury Control Research Center and one of the authors, Hemenway is notoriously anti-gun, so anything they publish is suspect. Second, the conclusions were:

We performed reviews of the academic literature on the effects of gun availability on suicide rates. The preponderance of current evidence indicates that gun availability is a risk factor for youth suicide in the United States.  The evidence that gun availability increases the suicide rates of adults is credible, but is currently less compelling.  Most of the disaggregate findings of particular studies (e.g. handguns are more of a risk factor than long guns, guns stored unlocked pose a greater risk than guns stored locked) are suggestive but not yet well established.

So this study said the current evidence is more than 50% (preponderance) that gun availability is a risk factor. But how much risk? It then makes a subjective assessment about the rate of suicide being affected by gun ownership ("...credible but is currently less compelling") and ends with another subjective assessment that the most of the studies used in this review were "...suggestive but not yet well established." Note the "...not yet well established..." statement. If one were objective, they would say something like it wasn't established, or the evidence didn't support the contention, but these guys already know that the findings will, at some point, substantiate their preconceived ideas. Hence the "...not yet..."

Another study studying the correlation between guns and suicide found:

The study confirms that people with guns at home are no more likely to attempt to kill themselves - but they are more likely to succeed because they are more likely to use a gun, Dr. Eric Fleegler, a pediatric emergency medicine doctor at Boston Children's Hospital and instructor at Harvard Medical School, said.

American Journal of Epidemiology, online August 23, 2013.

So, are you more likely to be successful if you attempt to commit suicide with a gun versus other methods? Yes. Will the presence of a gun increase the chances that you will attempt to commit suicide? Debatable, but probably not.

Some more good info here:

http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/14/does-gun-ownership-promote-suicide

Another frequently cited example: Japan, with a gun ownership rate of 0.6 per 100 people, compared to 88.8 in the United States, has a suicide rate nearly twice as high as high. China and South Korea likewise have much lower rates of civilian gun ownership but much higher rates of suicide. The relationship between gun ownership and suicide clearly is neither consistent nor straightforward.

As the article above points out, the rate of suicide in countries that have lots of guns is sometimes less than that of other countries without guns. That being the case, conclusive evidence of correlation is severely lacking. Furthermore, as the Reason article points out, the medical literature on guns is all too frequently biased by the researchers preconceived notions. As Rosenberg (and then Holder) said: "We need to revolutionize the way we look at guns, like what we did with cigarettes. It used to be that smoking was a glamour symbol—cool, sexy, macho. Now it is dirty, deadly—and banned."

No obvious bias there.....

The rate of Japan is a little less than double that of the USA but I feel that it is really not a good comparison. There are simply so many other factors going into the suicide rate such as culture, social problems, economy, etc which make it difficult to merely pick out firearms as not playing a role in the USA. I think we would need to consider the rates of attempted vs successful suicides as well to narrow that down.
And I was typing a reply when yours was posted in which I cited studies adressing this issue.

Wait a second. On one hand you are entirely comfortable accepting that one study with dubious methods and questionable results, performed by ardent anti-gun types, suggest that guns are a factor in increased suicides, but on the other, when presented with facts that tend to dispute that contention, suggest that there are a myriad of of other factors, such as social, cultural and economics, to make a valid comparison? That, my friend, is cherry picking......

Wait a second. On one hand you are entirely comfortable accepting that one study with dubious methods and questionable results, performed by ardent anti-gun types, suggest that guns are a factor in increased suicides, but on the other, when presented with facts that tend to dispute that contention, suggest that there are a myriad of of other factors, such as social, cultural and economics, to make a valid comparison? That, my friend, is cherry picking......

The link I posed appeared to present multiple studies on the subject. Some of these studies also claimed to control for various things such as education, income, mental illness, etc. A well done sociological study can control for various factors that might skew results. One obvious social difference one would need to consider is that suicide is seen as desirable in Japanese culture in certain situations, historically speaking.

However comparing merely the number of suicides in Japan to that of suicides in America without controlling for a large number of issues doesn't provide for any strong conclusion. If you wanted to compare accurately I think you would need to find numbers of suicides by firearms in Japan and check that number against the number of gun owners in Japan. IIRC a very very small amount of Japanese are allowed to have firearms.

First, Harvard's Injury Control Research Center and one of the authors, Hemenway is notoriously anti-gun, so anything they publish is suspect. Second, the conclusions were:

So this study said the current evidence is more than 50% (preponderance) that gun availability is a risk factor. But how much risk? It then makes a subjective assessment about the rate of suicide being affected by gun ownership ("...credible but is currently less compelling") and ends with another subjective assessment that the most of the studies used in this review were "...suggestive but not yet well established." Note the "...not yet well established..." statement. If one were objective, they would say something like it wasn't established, or the evidence didn't support the contention, but these guys already know that the findings will, at some point, substantiate their preconceived ideas. Hence the "...not yet..."

Another study studying the correlation between guns and suicide found:
American Journal of Epidemiology, online August 23, 2013.

So, are you more likely to be successful if you attempt to commit suicide with a gun versus other methods? Yes. Will the presence of a gun increase the chances that you will attempt to commit suicide? Debatable, but probably not.
Some more good info here:
http://reason.com/blog/2013/02/14/does-gun-ownership-promote-suicide

I agree that we can/should look suspiciously at a report written by someone with a known bias. I would be most suspicious of conclusions made but I would hesitate to claim that the numbers themselves are actually incorrect. Indeed correlation is not causation and I am not suggesting that having a gun makes one more likely to feel suicidal. Indeed one of the articles posted showed that gun owners are not more prone to mental health problems.

Firearms are the most common forms of suicide, it hovers a little over 50% and it is also the most efficient. I cannot find the number but did see that when looking at attempted suicide numbers firearms proved much much more successful than all other methods.
Outside of the effectiveness is the fact that if the method is readily available then someone is able to act quickly based on an urge. However this is also true for other methods such as drug overdoses because it is a means readily available.
90% of people who have attempted suicide do not end up dying from suicide which I think suggest many people change their minds about their desire to die. Many methods of suicide offer an chance to reverse someone's decision, but firearms don't.

Overall I would agree that owning firearms does not increase the likelihood that someone would be suicidal but it does appear to increase the chance that a suicide attempt would be successful. If you want I can try to find the rates of success compared to methods used. I saw it yesterday but cannot remember where.

It does make you wonder though, are Japanese just smarter when chosing methods to ensure that the suicide attempt is successful or perhaps are they more determined?

Disclaimer: I recognize that this really is an issue independant of whether firearms should be legal or not. A conclusion on this subject does not dictate a particular conclusion in the other subject.

I really do not understand why you are focusing on suicides.  First of all suicide is something that's been going on forever.  Whether it';s intentional or accidental, the fact is that suicides are never part of the safety aspect of any product.  Firearms should be no different.

Do we not issue a drivers license to people with a history of suicide attempts?  What about toxins in the home?  Rat poisons, cleaning chemicals, and so on are lethal enough to get the job done.

Did you know Cyanide is the second most effective means of suicide next to using a shotgun to the head?  How long is that waiting period before buying anything containing Cyanide?

Did you know the ratio of attempted suicides to successful ones in the US is 33 to 1?  Did you also know that is well below the worldwide ratio?  How is that possible, in a country choke full of guns?  Are Americans that inept that they can't even off themselves properly?  The rational (anti-gun) conclusion with guns being the most effective suicide means, and the US having the most firearms of any nation in the hands of civilians, that most people would choose to use a gun.  That  would make the attempt-to-success rate more like 2 to 1, allowing for flinching, ineffective caliber, old ammo, or plain bad aim!  So, once again, the facts and the anti-gun "rational and common sense conclusions" fail to meet!

So, all this talk of suicides and guns is completely impotent as far as making a decision about CCW or firearm access in general.

 

I really do not understand why you are focusing on suicides.  First of all suicide is something that's been going on forever.  Whether it';s intentional or accidental, the fact is that suicides are never part of the safety aspect of any product.  Firearms should be no different.
Do we not issue a drivers license to people with a history of suicide attempts?  What about toxins in the home?  Rat poisons, cleaning chemicals, and so on are lethal enough to get the job done.
Did you know Cyanide is the second most effective means of suicide next to using a shotgun to the head?  How long is that waiting period before buying anything containing Cyanide?
Did you know the ratio of attempted suicides to successful ones in the US is 33 to 1?  Did you also know that is well below the worldwide ratio?  How is that possible, in a country choke full of guns?  Are Americans that inept that they can't even off themselves properly?  The rational (anti-gun) conclusion with guns being the most effective suicide means, and the US having the most firearms of any nation in the hands of civilians, that most people would choose to use a gun.  That  would make the attempt-to-success rate more like 2 to 1, allowing for flinching, ineffective caliber, old ammo, or plain bad aim!  So, once again, the facts and the anti-gun "rational and common sense conclusions" fail to meet!

So, all this talk of suicides and guns is completely impotent as far as making a decision about CCW or firearm access in general.

 

As I stated, I believe the issue of suicide and firearms is separate from whether or not to have CCW. I was just providing more information since the subject of suicide and firearms were brought up. It is not necessarily an issue to legislate but is one to consider. The question is a valid one, if someone is carrying a firearm and feels suicidal are they more likely to be successful at comitting suicide than someone who has to drive home to grab their gun and comit suicide? Again this could also hold true to other means used such as whther someone carried rope around, or as in your example, cyanide.

As for the success of a firearm I found this:
http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/firearms/reliability
which said reports show firearms to be 73%-92% effective at being lethal.

Also according to that source, 80% of attempted suicide patients report that the suicide was not premeditated but done on impulse. This is why it could be a possible concern when considering CCW since having a weapon handy allows an impulse to be more easily acted upon. But does not necessarily mean that CCW or firearms should be banned because we as a people accept certain dangers in trade for certain freedoms.

And having said that I will leave the subject where is stands so as to not further go off topic.