Linked Events

  • HDF Suit: State Response Due: September 21, 2011
  • HDF Suit: Hearing on Plaintiff's MOTION for Prelim Inj: March 21, 2012
  • HDF Suit: Oral Arguments: December 06, 2012

HONOLULU POLICE CHIEF AND STATE OF HAWAII SUED FOR SECOND AMENDMENT VIOLATIONS (Read 376185 times)

rswarrior1700

The trial was relatively brief and is over. I could comment in full detail but I think I should leave that up to Funtimes or HiCarry.

Over as in Over done, finish ?!??!?!

Sounds like not so good news.....

How was the turn out did lots of people show up.
Im stuck on campus today.

PeaShooter

Over as in the trial finished and we went home. I think Funtimes or HiCarry are the ones who should explain the verdict.

Keep in mind that this was a preliminary trial, not necessarily the final trial. On the table were a couple of motions to dismiss by the state and HPD, vs a preliminary injunction for early favorable outcome by HDF.

I had no idea what kind of turnout was expected. But I thought it was a nice amount. We filled most of the courtroom seats. If there had been much more of us then it might have been overcrowded.

Cougar8045

If I had been able to get off work, I'd have been happy to contribute to standing-room only overcrowding.  >:(
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

HiCarry

There is a great write up of what happened at the Hawaii CCW FB page....Chris is understandably disappointed (as we all are) but is not giving up.

For those that showed up, thank you! However, if "we" are to move forward "we" really need to start thinking about how to finance the appeal. I would suggest that we all take a day or two off, get some rest, do something fun, and then get back to work. Now, more than ever, we all need to work together. The unfortunate reality of today's legal arena is that it takes money....lot's of money. National organizations have thus far been silent and kept their wallets closed. Local organizations like HRA and LIFE have contributed, but are not ever going to be able to finance this independently. So, while you're taking your mental health break, keep this thought in your mind: what can we do to raise money for this?

Idealy, it would be something with minimal logistic demands and high potential for sympathetic donations...like at the range and shooting events. I am going to suggest that we get some donation jars/cannisters at the upcoming Shooting Sports Fair....now it's your turn.

rswarrior1700

There is a great write up of what happened at the Hawaii CCW FB page....Chris is understandably disappointed (as we all are) but is not giving up.

For those that showed up, thank you! However, if "we" are to move forward "we" really need to start thinking about how to finance the appeal. I would suggest that we all take a day or two off, get some rest, do something fun, and then get back to work. Now, more than ever, we all need to work together. The unfortunate reality of today's legal arena is that it takes money....lot's of money. National organizations have thus far been silent and kept their wallets closed. Local organizations like HRA and LIFE have contributed, but are not ever going to be able to finance this independently. So, while you're taking your mental health break, keep this thought in your mind: what can we do to raise money for this?

Idealy, it would be something with minimal logistic demands and high potential for sympathetic donations...like at the range and shooting events. I am going to suggest that we get some donation jars/cannisters at the upcoming Shooting Sports Fair....now it's your turn.

Sound like a good idea for Shooting Sports Fair, so HRA and Life help with the funding what about the NRA?

Tom_G

There is a great write up of what happened at the Hawaii CCW FB page....

Really?  I've looked there, at the website, and on the HDF website, but don;t see anything other than mentions of the upcoming trial. 
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

sirkaiks

Really?  I've looked there, at the website, and on the HDF website, but don;t see anything other than mentions of the upcoming trial.
it's on hawaii conceal carry's facebook pg

Tom_G

it's on hawaii conceal carry's facebook pg

https://www.facebook.com/Hawaiiccw?sk=wall

Here?  The most current thing I see is 22 hours old, and says "good luck!"



[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 05:37:25 PM by Tom_G »
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

PeaShooter

Perhaps a facebook account is required to view it? I don't have a facebook account and do not ever intend on getting one.

Maybe someone can repost the write-up here. From talking to other fellow attendees, I will say that reactions to the verdict were mixed. It depends on what you expected. Of course, I have my own opinions too. There are many things that I would like to say but I am wary of saying them online, and even offline.

I learned a ton by going to this trial and I am very happy that I went.

Heavies

Well i cant see the FB too, but I am Sorry to hear that judgement. Not sure how that judge could find for the state seeing that this goes against the state and the United States Constitution. 

I am not suprized. Very disappointed, but not suprized. This whole system has become a farce. People's responsiblity and morality is going down the crapper, criminals are coddled and condoned, and terrorists and murderers are glorified. Being a just, moral, hardworking citizen is not politically correct anymore.

I am also very disappointed in the NRA. They are doing nothing in support of this action, not even a story on it. Makes me sad that they have no interest in this case at all. In the big picture maybe money is better spent by the NRA elsewhere, so I will still continue to support them.  Just sad that they could not have at least report the case out on the wire.

I hope that this election season can bring around real change for the better, both in this state and the nation. The path we all are heading down right now, I believe, will lead to disaster.

HRA, HDF, and 2AHawaii.com, thank you for the hard work on this.  :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 05:46:55 PM by Heavies »

sirkaiks

https://www.facebook.com/Hawaiiccw?sk=wall

Here?  The most current thing I see is 22 hours old, and says "good luck!"
actually it's a different page. i think it's a group. i'll try and post a link.

sirkaiks

Gordyf

 :(
I was not able to find anything on facebook but a bunch of pictures of "friends" even using the link so kindly provided by sirkaiks.
How about something on our forum for those who are technically challenged.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Aloha
Gordy

Cougar8045

Chris asked the guy who did the summary on facebook for permission to repost, but the guy hasn't come back with an answer yet.  I'm leery of reposting someone elses' hard work, which is why I'm not doing copy-pasta for you guys. 
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

DonRow

Well i cant see the FB too, but I am Sorry to hear that judgement. Not sure how that judge could find for the state seeing that this goes against the state and the United States Constitution. 

I am not suprized. Very disappointed, but not suprized. This whole system has become a farce. People's responsiblity and morality is going down the crapper, criminals are coddled and condoned, and terrorists and murderers are glorified. Being a just, moral, hardworking citizen is not politically correct anymore.

I am also very disappointed in the NRA. They are doing nothing in support of this action, not even a story on it. Makes me sad that they have no interest in this case at all. In the big picture maybe money is better spent by the NRA elsewhere, so I will still continue to support them.  Just sad that they could not have at least report the case out on the wire.

I hope that this election season can bring around real change for the better, both in this state and the nation. The path we all are heading down right now, I believe, will lead to disaster.

HRA, HDF, and 2AHawaii.com, thank you for the hard work on this.  :thumbsup:
Because in Hawaii they use the constitution only when it fits there agenda... Other then that, they spit on it.

Cougar8045

Because in Hawaii they use the constitution only when it fits there agenda... Other then that, they spit on it.
Spit?  I think you're one letter off, friend...   ;)
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

sirkaiks

Chris asked the guy who did the summary on facebook for permission to repost, but the guy hasn't come back with an answer yet.  I'm leery of reposting someone elses' hard work, which is why I'm not doing copy-pasta for you guys.
that's why i didn't copy paste also, plus you kind of have to read the whole post.

DonRow

Spit?  I think you're one letter off, friend...   ;)
Damn auto correct :D

PeaShooter

Chris asked the guy who did the summary on facebook for permission to repost, but the guy hasn't come back with an answer yet.  I'm leery of reposting someone elses' hard work, which is why I'm not doing copy-pasta for you guys.

In that case, I'll do my own version of the write-up here. If any of you guys don't like it or think I have said some things incorrectly, just say so and I'll erase or edit my own message.

The trial was short and lasted only one and a half hours. There were no witnesses called to the stand. The majority of the time consisted of Chris' lawyer Richard Holcomb presenting various arguments, and with the judge occasionally pointing out any logical fallacies. The judge treated the state's lawyers in the same way, and pointed out their logical fallacies equally often during the times they were presenting their arguments.

Chris'  Request for a Preliminary Injunction, which would have temporarily but immediately allowed Chris to carry a handgun until all trial processes are concluded, was denied. The judge's primary reasoning was that a Preliminary Injunction requires Chris to demonstrate that he will suffer 'irreparable harm' if his request is denied, regardless of the Second Amendment, and he did not show this.

HPD's Motion to Dismiss the lawsuit against them was granted, primarily on technical grounds resulting from flaws in the subpoena. The judge did not mention whether or not this lawsuit was dismissed with prejudice, but I presume it was dismissed without prejudice, so Chris should be free to amend his complaint in order to attempt to sue HPD again.

The State's Motion to Dismiss the lawsuit against them was denied. The judge apparently denied their claims of sovereign immunity, among other claims. So the results of the trial were not completely negative. Chris' lawsuit against Neil Abercrombie and the State of Hawaii will presumably be heard and reconsidered in full at a later date, although whether once again in U.S. District Court or in a higher Appeals court, I don't know. It is this pending lawsuit in which the Second Amendment will have to be carefully considered. So actually this judge postponed the Second Amendment considerations. He said that it would be wise to wait until the recent Appeals court case dealing with the Second Amendment, Nordyke v. King, is concluded, and that Chris' lawsuit would in turn be influenced by its outcome.

The State's lawyers also had a Request for a Judgment on the Pleadings on the table. I'd never heard of this term before. The judge did not say anything about this in the verdict but I think it was understood that this was also denied, which was good for us. Basically, the lawsuit goes on.

edit: Crud, same time post. Maybe I should delete mine, oh well.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 09:03:00 PM by PeaShooter »

Funtimes

Sorry for the delay, I had to field lots of phone calls and then go work my 3rd job.   We do intend to appeal (depending on the written opinion's language), but this will cost probably around 5k-6k dollars.  Don't forget to contribute; even if you skip one meal at McDonalds and throw us $7.00, it helps.    Also, if you are a NRA instructor and might be interested in helping me teach classes, we do this to raise money - please let me know.  You would need to attend a few classes with me so we know its all good and everything is square.

From our Hawaii CCW Facebook page:

Plaintiff’s motion for preliminary injunction is denied. Plaintiff did not satisfy the four factor analysis to determine whether a preliminary injunction should issue. Plaintiff is unlikely to prevail on the merits. Plaintiff’s asserted harm is speculative. The balance of equities favors Defendants, not Plaintiff. Granting the preliminary injunction is not in the public interest.

City & County’s motion to dismiss is granted in part and denied in part. The Court dismisses HPD and Chief Kealoha in his personal capacity. Chief Kealoha is party only with respect to injunctive relief, if any.

The State’s motion for judgment on the pleadings is denied. The complaint is lengthy and not sufficiently precise. However, the court finds sufficient clarity under Ninth Circuit precedent that Plaintiff set out the various claims of the complaint.

Count 13 of the Complaint is dismissed. Injunctive relief is a prayer for relief, not an independent count or cause of action.

The City & County of Honolulu is not subject to 5th Amendment. The Fifth Amendment applies to the federal government, not a municipality.

Judge Kay’s written order will explain his reasoning.
4 hours ago · Like · 2
David Sgan
Here are my two cent comments from the peanut gallery.

1. At the outset of the hearing, Judge Kay asked whether the parties wanted to submit evidence in support or opposition to the preliminary injunction motion. None of the parties sought to admit further evidence in support of their position. Since Plaintiff has the burden of proof in a preliminary injunction motion, this may have been an important opportunity missed.

2. Judge Kay rejected Plaintiff’s reading of the HRS §§ 134-24, and 134-25, Place to Keep statutes, as a prohibition on in-home possession of loaded firearms, and therefore, a violation of the Supreme Court’s Heller and McDonald decisions. Judge Kay was highly critical, if not incredulous, towards Plaintiff’s statutory construction and interpretation.

3. The Court was critical of the “lumping together” of all the named defendants in the averments of the complaint. Judge Kay wants specific attribution of parties, facts, and theories of liability. He expressed his agreement with the C&C’s attorney that the complaint is excessively long. He also agreed that HPD is not “sui juris” as an entity, but is really just a department or organ of municipal government.

4. Now the good stuff with respect to the 2nd Amendment. Judge Kay is concerned about other courts staying their decisions until the 9th Circuit sitting en banc decides the Nordyke case. He asked each counsel what their position on staying this case pending a decision in the Nordyke case. The answers he got from counsel ranged from “the facts and issues in Nordyke are too different to this case” to “that case may be useful to provide an applicable standard of scrutiny to the right to keep and bear arms outside the home.” He then added that the “real issue in Nordyke” is the standard of review applicable in the Ninth Circuit. He mentioned Judge O’Scannlain’s “substantial burden” standard on Second Amendment rights, echoing the abortion standard, and perhaps foreshadowing the forthcoming en banc opinion.

5. As expected, the State and City’s position is that the Heller and McDonald decisions limited the right to keep and bear arms in the home and no more. Judge Kay doesn’t accept this position at face value. He is rightly concerned about the non-exhaustive list of either permissible or restricted sensitive areas discussed as obiter dictum in the Heller and McDonald decisions. Judge Kay criticized these Supreme Court opinions for their lack of clarity.

6. Judge Kay also talked aloud about a recent Fourth Circuit decision. He noted that the Fourth Circuit, without reaching a decision about the correct standard of review, expressed its reasoning that the Heller and McDonald cases must be read to recognize a general right to bear arms outside the home. This is because the Supreme Court expressly recognized and carved out “sensitive areas” where government may prohibit gun possession. If there were no such general 2A right, then there would be no need to carve out such gun-free zones. However, he also noted that the Fourth Circuit ultimately decided to await further instruction from the Supreme Court before issuing a decision consistent with that line of reasoning.

7. With respect to the issuance of carry permits by Chief Kealoha of HPD, Judge Kay was critical of Plaintiff’s avowed “exceptional circumstances” that would warrant issuance of a permit. Judge Kay relied on anecdotal evidence that Chris Baker was the only one out of 75 process servers who actually applied for a permit. Plaintiff’s counsel made some inroads by arguing that “exceptional circumstances” are not necessary in the presence of a constitutional right deprivation. If there is a constitutional right, then Chief Kealoha’s exclusive and unreviewable authority does not satisfy procedural due process. Judge Kay responded weakly and unpersuasively that Baker didn’t ask for an explanation following his denial. Plaintiff’s counsel scored points here.

8. With respect to the element of irreparable injury, Plaintiff’s counsel waded straight back into Judge Kay’s rejection of the argument that the Place to Keep statutes prohibit carrying loaded firearms inside your home. In other words, Hawaii law is and has been consistent with the Heller and McDonald decisions with respect to your right to keep and bear a loaded firearm in your home, work, place of sojourn, and at the range. Plaintiff’s counsel argued that even a momentary and minimal denial of a constitutional right constitutes irreparable harm. This is a familiar and valid concept recognized in Free Speech cases. Judge Kay had no response, but rejected the argument by implication in his order.

9. Judge Kay returned to his observation that none of the other process servers seem to have Baker’s need to carry a firearm in the course of their service duties. No one apprised the Court that some of Hawaii’s process servers are LEOs moonlighting, and don’t need to avail themselves of the permit process.

10. With respect to the public interest factor, Judge Kay is relying on his survey of cases, perhaps post-Miller and pre-Heller, to conclude that the “vast majority” of courts have ruled that granting injunctive relief in 2A cases is not in the public interest. Judge Kay’s public interest analysis is not very persuasive and presented (and may continue to present) an opportunity for Plaintiff to discredit.

The whole question of whether a judge even has the capacity to evaluate the “public interest” has been challenged in a variety of civil contexts including antitrust and securities regulations. As if to exact a concession, Judge Kay cited Defendants’ proffered statistics as evidence and the Court’s own “common sense” before asking Plaintiff’s counsel to comment or rebut. I think Judge Kay knows he’s on weak ground by using anecdotes (e.g., road rage, Zimmerman), suspect data, and his “common sense” in order to deprive Chris Baker of a fundamental constitutional right to keep and bear arms for self-defense outside the home.

I also think that Judge Kay is relying on the causal fallacy that rates of crimes committed with a firearm vary directly with gun sales and ownership. As far as I can tell, all the statistics used on either side of the various 2A debates and cases are highly suspect, grossly misleading, and wildly inconclusive. It reminds me of Prof. Coase’ quote, “if you torture the data long enough, it will confess." Nonetheless, the context of a preliminary injunction behooves Plaintiff to come forward with statistics and perhaps an expert to show and opine that the increased issuance of carry permits does not increase local violent crime rates.
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