"And by what measure do you equate being a supporter of terrorism? Is being against UK and US intervention in the middle east terrorism?"

I think that pretty much states my case.

You apparently think the Iranians are justified in their terroristic violence and killing of men, women, and children -- mostly civilians -- in China, Asia, the Middle East, Europe, and elsewhere, all because the UK and US meddled in their governmental affairs?

And what of the very same attacks carried out by US and UK backed "freedom fighters"? Are the CIA backed plans and attacks that continue to ravage the world not one in the same? Do they suddenly become different just because of the blind faith to the US government having a divine mandate over who gets to have a "democracy" or not?

Lets take a look at US sponsored regime changes
1949, Syria; a CIA puppet general coup to take over the newly independent republic of Syria whose rule only lasted four and a half months

1953, Iran; a CIA operation that was aimed at destroying and taking over a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government and restoring the power of the fascistic Shah

1954, Guatemala; a CIA plan against yet another DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government which resulted in a decades long civil war killing over 200,000

1955 to 1970, Tibet; directly supporting terrorist attacks against the Chinese government

1958, Indonesia; a 3 year long rebellion supported by US money and weapons that failed and left the rebel totally defeated while costing the US taxpayers to give billions of dollars in civilian and military aid to the war torn nation.

1959, Cuba; a direct attack on the Cuban nation to overthrow the Castro regime which only served to increase tension in the region and quite possibly the only reason that Castro managed to stay in power for so long. Had we not ever done such a foolish scheme the Cuban missile crisis may have never even been a thing.

1960 to 1963, Iraq; Another coup that resulted in creating a bigger enemy of the US than was originally a threat causing political massacres and shoddy alliances that did more harm than good and setting up the road for Saddam Hussein to come to power.

1960 to 1965, Democratic Republic of the Congo: The CIA backed and presidential authorization to assassinate the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED prime minister of the new independent republic. Setting up the over 30 year DICTATORSHIP of Mobutu Sese Seko, a brutal and violent man that stole over 15 billion dollars from his country to fund his lavish and rich life. Any form of opposition to his rule was met with public execution.

1961, Dominican Republic; a CIA supported assassination of the Dominican President led to a communist taking root in the nation and as a result Lyndon Johnson sent in the USMC and the US Army to invade and seize control of the nation from the "threat" of communist hands. After the US military occupied the nation for a year elections were held and a former puppet of the assassinated president took power resultting in a 12 year period of yet another dictatorship, but at least he was a US supported dictator!

1963, South Vietnam; in a rare turn of events both the US and Communist sought to assassinate the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED* president of South Vietnam. It turns out that the CIA was willing to pay more money and got to him first. I don't think i need to elaborate on the fate of Vietnam due to US intervention.

1964, Brazil;  A US Presidential supported coup of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of Brazil. setting up a "transitory government" which turned into a out right dictatorship until as of recent history would any see Brazil as a legitimate government and it is still plagued by massive wealth inequality, political corruption, and humran rights violations.   

1966, Ghana; another CIA backed coup of a government that only leads to decades of economic and political decline with suspension of national constitutions and ever changing military and civilians governments. Only recently could you consider Ghana a "stable" nation after the damage done by foreign intervention.

1970 to 1973, Chile; the US government backs and encourages the overthrow of the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government of Chile. Leading to the direct installation of the Pinochet dictatorship.

1979 to 1989, Afghanistan; The US fear of communism being far too popular an ideology to die of it's own ineptitude and poor policies doesn't seem to ever be understood by the Washington policy makers and as such the US government decides to directly train and fund Islamic "freedom fighter" organizations. Ultimately leaving Afghanistan a desolate war zone to be ripe for the taking by the now well known Al-Qaeda

1980, Turkey; The openly admitted US backed coup leading to a military dictatorship that brutally murdered, kidnapped and tortured political opposition.
resultign in the following as compiled by the Turkish government in 2012:
650,000 people were under arrest.
1,683,000 people were blacklisted.
230,000 people were judged in 210,000 lawsuits.
7,000 people were asked for the death penalty.
517 persons were sentenced to death.
50 of those given the death penalty were executed (26 political prisoners, 23 criminal offenders and 1 ASALA militant).
The files of 259 people, which had been asked for the death penalty, were sent to the National Assembly.
71,000 people were judged on account of the articles 141, 142 and 163 in Turkish Penal Code.
98,404 people were judged on charges of being members of a leftist, a rightist, a nationalist, a conservative, etc. organization.
388,000 people were not given a passport.
30,000 people were dismissed from their firms because they were suspects and therefore inconvenient.
14,000 people were removed from citizenship.
30,000 people went abroad as a political refugee.
300 people died in a suspicious manner.
Documented that 171 people died by reason of torture.
937 films were banned because these were found objectionable.
23,677 associations had their activities stopped.
3,854 teachers, 120 lecturers and 47 judges were dismissed.
400 journalists were asked a total of 4000 years’ imprisonment.
Journalists were sentenced 3315 years and 6 months’ imprisonment.
31 journalists went to jail.
300 journalists were attacked.
3 journalists were shot dead.
300 days in which newspapers were not published.
303 cases were opened for 13 major newspapers.
39 tonnes of newspapers and magazines were destroyed.
299 people lost their lives in prison.
144 people died in a suspicious manner.
14 people died in a hunger strike.
While fleeing, 16 people were shot.
95 people were killed in combat.
“Natural death report” for 73 persons was given.
The cause of death of 43 people was announced as “suicide”.

1981 to 1990, Nicaragua; The CIA attempt to overthrow the Sandinista government know as the Iran-Contra affair revealing weapons deals with Iran and even the use of drug money from smuggled drugs into the US with federal agency cooperation to fund, train, and arm the Contras.

1992 to 1996, Iraq; after the wonderful outcome from previous CIA intervention in Iraq the new dictatorship formerly supported by the US govt in it's funding of the Iran - Iraq war the CIA plots a failed coup to overthrow the Iraqi government resulting in the CIA contacts being executed and a bolstered base of support for the Hussein regime.

2002, Venezuela; the failed CIA coup of DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Hugo Chavez. Venezuela still doesn't like the US government.

2005 to PRESENT, Iran; the US government passes the "Iran Freedom and Support Act" after the failed attempt to create an ally puppet state the US government decides it just need to throw more money at supporting rebel groups and "freedom fighters" to the tune of over $400 MILLION

2011 to PRESENT, Libya; The "spontaneous" Arab spring that saw the US government forming a NATO coalition in support of "freedom fighters" seeking to oust the DIRECT DEMOCRATIC government of Libya. Since the drone assisted assassination of the Libyan president Libya has become a hotbed of islamic insurgent activity and littell more than a war ravaged shadow of it's former self.

2012 to PRESENT, Syria; proclaimed as the Syrian revolution by the US mainstream media the US government has been funding, training and arming "moderate" rebels set against the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED Syrian government. A major problem the lack of verification of these "moderate" rebels and the distribution of US supplied weapons. Of recent note is the discovery that Senator John McCain visited with these "moderate" rebels only for it to be discovered that within the very same group are known ISIS members.

As for Iran's record of foreign intervention all there seems to be are allegations with no real evidence to back up such claims.

Looking at this list I am just absolutely ecstatic to know that the US government and it's blind supporter believe they are in any sort of position telling others that they are too dangerous to be trusted with nuclear weapons.

And what of the very same attacks carried out by US and UK backed "freedom fighters"? Are the CIA backed plans and attacks that continue to ravage the world not one in the same? Do they suddenly become different just because of the blind faith to the US government having a divine mandate over who gets to have a "democracy" or not?

Lets take a look at US sponsored regime changes as related to the thread topic of Iran:


1953, Iran; a CIA operation that was aimed at destroying and taking over a DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED government and restoring the power of the fascistic Shah

2005 to PRESENT, Iran; the US government passes the "Iran Freedom and Support Act" after the failed attempt to create an ally puppet state the US government decides it just need to throw more money at supporting rebel groups and "freedom fighters" to the tune of over $400 MILLION.

As for Iran's record of foreign intervention all there seems to be are allegations with no real evidence to back up such claims.

Looking at this list I am just absolutely ecstatic to know that the US government and it's blind supporter believe they are in any sort of position telling others that they are too dangerous to be trusted with nuclear weapons.

I took the liberty of picking out the items from your anti-America rant that relate to this thread.  Gee, I just don't see the justification for all of Iran's terrorism globally based on the list that's relevant.  Are you saying Iran is using the totality of the US's foreign involvement to rationalize their attacks?  I was unaware they were the guardians of the world against the US.  And to use random acts of death and destruction against civilians to terrorize the public against the US is just brilliant!

If you want to start another thread to discuss the imperialistic acts of the US in the last century that justifies retribution by the countries affected, then that's an option.  But to list foreign involvement in other countries OTHER THAN IRAN is completely irrational.  The list I gave identified the reasons Iran is not to be trusted with nukes.  Based on your comments, you seem to believe the bad acts of other countries outweigh the horrors inflicted on the world by Iran.

If we go by your standards, we might as well open a nuke store and sell them to all nations who can afford the price.  Responsibility and stated objectives like wiping other nations from the face of the Earth make no difference.  If you do heroin, then you should allow your teenage son to do it, too.  Otherwise you're a hypocrite.

Sad there are people who can't see past their own biases and rationally identify a bad situation before it's too late.

They didn't create ISIS. We did. Now Bibi wants to start World War 3. He was wrong about Iraq, and he's wrong about this.

It would make a wonderful cover for the imminent financial collapse that's coming. That way all the war pigs who sunk our national treasure into F-35's and losing war after war could maintain their grip on power just long enough to lock down the newly formed  surveillance//security state into a fascist dictatorship. It won't work, of course, but that doesn't mean they won't try anyway and get a whole lot of people killed in the process.

They didn't create ISIS. We did. Now Bibi wants to start World War 3. He was wrong about Iraq, and he's wrong about this.

It would make a wonderful cover for the imminent financial collapse that's coming. That way all the war pigs who sunk our national treasure into F-35's and losing war after war could maintain their grip on power just long enough to lock down the newly formed  surveillance//security state into a fascist dictatorship. It won't work, of course, but that doesn't mean they won't try anyway and get a whole lot of people killed in the process.

Bibi is going to PREVENT WWIII.  If he waits for Iran to have nukes, WWIII is inevitable, and Israel will be the first casualty.  If Israel can prevent Iran from developing their nuclear capability by taking out their facilities, Iran will not have the military might to wage war for long.  Israel has a better chance of survival if they strike early.

It's one thing when you are threatened with annihilation.  It's a totally different situation when those making the threats also have the means and the will to use it.

We're the only ones who have used nukes in actual warfare. Their purpose is a deterrent, and maybe if Iran had some we would finally leave them alone. It's better than getting bossed around by some monstrous little apartheid state that refuses to get along with it's neighbors and expects us to continually pick up the tab for it's burned bridges and psychotic aggression.

you don't get to ignore the actions of the US government when the US government is the one that is going to be enforcing the nuclear ban on Iran.

Calling out terrible US government decisions for being terrible isn't anti-American, it's being realistic and objective about the events leading to the current situation. The argument to prevent Iran from getting a nuke is framed as if the US has the moral high ground when in reality it's committed much farther reaching and widespread acts of terrorism.

Which also brings us to what do you exactly consider to be the definition of terrorism? Every single one of my examples are a perfect match to the US government definition of terrorism.

How many decades has Iran been only a few years away from building a nuke? Why would the US have to fear Iran using the bomb on anyone if the US didn't sponsor terrorism inside their country?



This image was 3 years ago! If Iran was at 90% then, what percentage are they at now to still be "five years away" from finishing the bomb.

Notice that my position does not frame either side as right or wrong. it points out the fallacy of the US pretending to be the sole authority on who gets to own nukes based on their previous actions. That very same standard should be applied and the Nuclear arsenal of the US should be dismantled and taken for fear of the US launching nukes on defenseless countries around the world.

Maybe the US govt should stop blowing people up with drone strikes. Maybe the US government should stop the economic sanctions against other countries and making the life of the people harder while having no impact on the leadership. Maybe the US government should stop setting up and supporting dictatorships when they claim to be against those very same elements. Maybe the US government should stop sponsoring terrorism with in Iranian borders. Maybe the US government should stop trying to be the world police when they can't even do their own job properly at home.

you don't get to ignore the actions of the US government when the US government is the one that is going to be enforcing the nuclear ban on Iran.

Calling out terrible US government decisions for being terrible isn't anti-American, it's being realistic and objective about the events leading to the current situation. The argument to prevent Iran from getting a nuke is framed as if the US has the moral high ground when in reality it's committed much farther reaching and widespread acts of terrorism.

So, if not the US, then who do you nominate to take the moral high ground?  Remember, we have a United Nations that is involved as well.  Iran is doing exactly what Iraq did with the WMD inspections.  They are thumbing their nose at the UN, and refusing to allow inspections and oversight.  You think the UN has the might and will to enforce their mandates on Iran. If so, I refer you to all the other UN sanctions and military operations that have failed miserably.

Again, if you think one's history negates their ability to make moral decisions, you are a bigger hypocrite than the US as you have painted us.

There is no single nation in the world without some kind of sin.  So what's your answer to that?  Global Anarchy?  Might makes right?  Isolationism?

You have nothing  but accusations, bias, finger-pointing, and arguments against anyone's proposed solutions, all based on your personal belief that only he who is without sin may cast  the first stone.  That and turning the other cheek will only make you a victim.  Evil exists, and you taking the moral stance that you are not innocent enough to judge another is just delusional, if not 100% infantile and naive.

So far you have bashed every logical explanation about the Iranian Nuclear Development program. 

Tell us, what do YOU propose? 

Seems the world was in this situation once before.  The side in power was all for appeasement in the name of peace.......  Where did that lead? ?? 

 
 
 
Only now the weapons used will be 1000X more effective.

Calling me an isolationist for not wanting to bomb other countries and fund terrorist groups is like complain that your neighbor is a shitty person because they don't break into your house and steal from your fridge.

The fact of the matter is the no one has the right to tell others what to do.

I have made no accusations and only offer facts in the matter. The real accusations are from the side of the argument that accuses Iran of wanting nukes only to be used in an offensive manner when the only country in the world to have ever done such a thing is factually and unquestionably the US government.

Instead of punishing people economically, since economic sanctions only hurt the people more than it ever will to a government.

The best way to create peaceful, prosperous, and healthy relations with other nations is to participate in free trade. A nation that is included and participates in the free exchange of goods and services is far less likely to be an irrational actor when they have the amenities and comforts provided by the peaceful  voluntary trade. The USA has the most power political, cultural, and economic ability in the world. You don't need a military to force people to want to buy things. Government bans don't stop peopel from wanting to buy things, in fact bans usually make people want to buy them even more.

The only proper and true solution to the middle east is for the problem of western intervention to stop giving people a reason to want to fight and start giving them a reason to want to do trade with us.

Calling me an isolationist for not wanting to bomb other countries and fund terrorist groups is like complain that your neighbor is a shitty person because they don't break into your house and steal from your fridge.

The fact of the matter is the no one has the right to tell others what to do.

I have made no accusations and only offer facts in the matter. The real accusations are from the side of the argument that accuses Iran of wanting nukes only to be used in an offensive manner when the only country in the world to have ever done such a thing is factually and unquestionably the US government.

Instead of punishing people economically, since economic sanctions only hurt the people more than it ever will to a government.

The best way to create peaceful, prosperous, and healthy relations with other nations is to participate in free trade. A nation that is included and participates in the free exchange of goods and services is far less likely to be an irrational actor when they have the amenities and comforts provided by the peaceful  voluntary trade. The USA has the most power political, cultural, and economic ability in the world. You don't need a military to force people to want to buy things. Government bans don't stop peopel from wanting to buy things, in fact bans usually make people want to buy them even more.

The only proper and true solution to the middle east is for the problem of western intervention to stop giving people a reason to want to fight and start giving them a reason to want to do trade with us.

There is no way to discuss this topic if you truly believe that on a local and global scale.

I'll be by your house tonight to take what I want and do whatever I want to the residents.  Don't forget -- you have no right to tell me I can't.

Calling me an isolationist for not wanting to bomb other countries and fund terrorist groups is like complain that your neighbor is a shitty person because they don't break into your house and steal from your fridge.

The fact of the matter is the no one has the right to tell others what to do.

I have made no accusations and only offer facts in the matter. The real accusations are from the side of the argument that accuses Iran of wanting nukes only to be used in an offensive manner when the only country in the world to have ever done such a thing is factually and unquestionably the US government.

Instead of punishing people economically, since economic sanctions only hurt the people more than it ever will to a government.

The best way to create peaceful, prosperous, and healthy relations with other nations is to participate in free trade. A nation that is included and participates in the free exchange of goods and services is far less likely to be an irrational actor when they have the amenities and comforts provided by the peaceful  voluntary trade. The USA has the most power political, cultural, and economic ability in the world. You don't need a military to force people to want to buy things. Government bans don't stop peopel from wanting to buy things, in fact bans usually make people want to buy them even more.

The only proper and true solution to the middle east is for the problem of western intervention to stop giving people a reason to want to fight and start giving them a reason to want to do trade with us.

The Muslims have a religion that prevents them from following your ideals, because they DO want to tell us what to do!  Until you fix that little problem, stop laying all the guilt at the US's doorstep!  They will hate the US and Israel for centuries, because they believe we are the Big and Little Satans.  No amount of trying to get along will alter that warped opinion of us.

Seems the world was in this situation once before.  The side in power was all for appeasement in the name of peace.......  Where did that lead? ?? 

 
 
 
Only now the weapons used will be 1000X more effective.

Iran is not Nazi Germany, Iran isn't occupying Israel and forcing the Israeli citizens into concentration camps

If you want to discuss old irrelevant events that have nothing to do with the parties involved I could bring up countless massacres committed by the US government and it's sponsored "allies".

Is this a discussion about Nazi Germany or Iran?

Iran is not Nazi Germany, Iran isn't occupying Israel and forcing the Israeli citizens into concentration camps

If you want to discuss old irrelevant events that have nothing to do with the parties involved I could bring up countless massacres committed by the US government and it's sponsored "allies".

Is this a discussion about Nazi Germany or Iran?

That's true, because Israel is able to defend herself.  Had the Jews prior to WWi and WWII had that capability, the concentration camps would have never existed.

There is no way to discuss this topic if you truly believe that on a local and global scale.

I'll be by your house tonight to take what I want and do whatever I want to the residents.  Don't forget -- you have no right to tell me I can't.

You are most welcome to attempt doing whatever you want involving coming onto my property and taking my things against my own will but you should remember that this is a gun owner related forum and I will use whatever force necessary to prevent the threat of your actions on my property and not even a second before you actually begin to initiate aggression upon me will I preemptively shoot you just because of your publicly made statements declared on this forum.

The Muslims have a religion that prevents them from following your ideals, because they DO want to tell us what to do!  Until you fix that little problem, stop laying all the guilt at the US's doorstep!  They will hate the US and Israel for centuries, because they believe we are the Big and Little Satans.  No amount of trying to get along will alter that warped opinion of us.

This is a discussion about Iran, not Islam. Are you assuming that Iran only allows muslims to live in Iran?

Iran used to be on good relations with the western world, right up until the western world decided to fund the destruction of their government. Once again I'm not claiming anyone good or bad. They both have taken actions, but you can't claim the actions of Iran count against it while the  actions of the US govt do not count at all.

That's true, because Israel is able to defend herself.  Had the Jews prior to WWi and WWII had that capability, the concentration camps would have never existed.

Had the Hawaiians prior to annexation had that capability, the occupation of Hawaii would have never existed.

As a side note what is with the 2 faced coin of the US government not being considered you when it comes to infringing gun rights. Yet when the question is asked to go to war to support the illusion of Pax Americana the US Government is now "we and us"?

You are most welcome to attempt doing whatever you want involving coming onto my property and taking my things against my own will but you should remember that this is a gun owner related forum and I will use whatever force necessary to prevent the threat of your actions on my property and not even a second before you actually begin to initiate aggression upon me will I preemptively shoot you just because of your publicly made statements declared on this forum.

This is a discussion about Iran, not Islam. Are you assuming that Iran only allows muslims to live in Iran?

Iran used to be on good relations with the western world, right up until the western world decided to fund the destruction of their government. Once again I'm not claiming anyone good or bad. They both have taken actions, but you can't claim the actions of Iran count against it while the  actions of the US govt do not count at all.

Oh, so it's okay to take my life if I threaten you?  Who is taking the "MORAL HIGH GROUND" now?  Have you never sinned in your life?  Have you never lied, stolen or hurt anyone?  According to your rants, you can't judge my actions if you have ever done anything wrong in your life.

"no one has the right to tell others what to do"

So, now you are telling me I can't do what I want?  Hypocritical, to say the least!

Oh, so it's okay to take my life if I threaten you?  Who is taking the "MORAL HIGH GROUND" now?  Have you never sinned in your life?  Have you never lied, stolen or hurt anyone?  According to your rants, you can't judge my actions if you have ever done anything wrong in your life.

So, now you are telling me I can't do what I want?  Hypocritical, to say the least!

I see you follow the school of absurdity and poor reading comprehension.

I'll break it down barney style for you.

If you engage in a aggressive manner on me or my property I will use force to stop you while you are in the act.

If all you do is talk about attacking me I'm gonna keep an eye on you, but I'm not gonna start shooting you just because an uneducated toddler is mad he isn't getting his way.

I see you follow the school of absurdity and poor reading comprehension.

I'll break it down barney style for you.

If you engage in a aggressive manner on me or my property I will use force to stop you while you are in the act.

If all you do is talk about attacking me I'm gonna keep an eye on you, but I'm not gonna start shooting your just because an uneducated toddler is mad he isn't getting his way.

Why do you reserve the right to self defense for yourself, but  you criticize Israel for their efforts to do the same?