Shooting on private property (Read 2671 times)

thewrench

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Shooting on private property
« on: September 01, 2011, 02:12:27 PM »
I've searched the site, and found:

Shooting on private property is completely legal in Hawaii.

There are 3 things, call them side effects of shooting on private property, that can get you in trouble though:
1.  Having a bullet leave your property.  Instant case of reckless endangering.
2.  Violating noise ordinances.  Earns you a pricey ticket.
3.  Displaying a firearm in view of the public.  Can get you charged with terroristic threatening.

So, the trick is to find private property that allows you privacy and noise abatement.  I regularly shoot inside my house, using powderless .22 rounds called "Super Colibri" by Aguila.  These, and other similar products, have less report than a spring-driven air gun.  I would shoot in my backward, but I can't absolutely guarantee that a neighbor won't see me and take offense.

My friend is having trouble with their neighbors threatening to call the police. So, how could he check to make sure that he won't "get arrested/ go to jail" like the neighbor mentioned repeatedly on the phone. (BTW the neighbor lives down the street, 3 houses away from said incident)

The specifics of the situation are:
1. Located on 2 acres, agriculture zoned land in a valley. It is about a 60' backstop behind shooting range.
2. As mentioned, agriculture zoned, so I'm not aware of any noise ordinances. (but where could we check)
3. Possibly in view of the public if the public really is trying to see in, but certainly not a danger to them.

The police haven't shown up yet, but we probably won't be shooting there for a while unless we're sure he won't get in trouble- any tips?

Mahalo    :shaka:

EDIT: forgot to mention that this problem probably won't go away by itself because the complainer opened one of those bed & breakfast places out there in the jungle... :-\

antoinebugleboy

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2011, 02:32:02 PM »
How about calling the cops and asking what they would do if the neighbor called to complain? I.e., what charges might be pressed, who'd be in the right, etc.?
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2aHawaii

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2011, 03:00:01 PM »
It looks like you found the prior thread concerning this topic. What really got to me is that noise complaints are handled subjectively by police. I'm sure you could do it as long as you are being safe and have a proper backstop (berm), but I wouldn't want to risk the noise complaints (which is what it sounds like you were threatened with already).

You could try calling the local police station to verify with them first, BUT chances are they will say don't do it (and pretty harshly at that).

Maybe someone else will be able to chime in here with a better answer for you.
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

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Heavies

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2011, 03:56:52 PM »
Quote
EDIT: forgot to mention that this problem probably won't go away by itself because the complainer opened one of those bed & breakfast places out there in the jungle...

I'd complain that the bed and breakfast is messing up your peaceful community.  >:D It worked somewhat here on Oahu, but that would be apples vs. oranges.  :P

Is a B&B legal on agg zoned land ? ???

Maybe you could look into that aspect.
Then your friend could be, "look, don't bother me, and I won't bother you." ;D

Funtimes

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2011, 04:03:36 PM »
I'm pretty sure the noise ordinance says *sustained* noise of xx decibles for five minutes.  You are shooting a CRAP ton if you are sustained for five minutes.

Cougar8045

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2011, 04:13:25 PM »
I'm pretty sure the noise ordinance says *sustained* noise of xx decibles for five minutes.  You are shooting a CRAP ton if you are sustained for five minutes.
I'd verify that, and if FT's correct, I'd make it a habit to go out and dump a mag or two right before I went to bed, and first thing when I got up the morning.  But then again, I've been called a prick before and I don't mind being called one again!  >:D
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

thewrench

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2011, 10:23:46 PM »

I'd complain that the bed and breakfast is messing up your peaceful community.  >:D It worked somewhat here on Oahu, but that would be apples vs. oranges.  :P

Is a B&B legal on agg zoned land ? ???

Maybe you could look into that aspect.
Then your friend could be, "look, don't bother me, and I won't bother you." ;D


Unfortunately yes, his B&B is totally legal. I think it was a PITA and that's why he's being such a prick in general.

I'm torn between doing the right thing and calling to verify with the police first, or just waiting to see what they say when they show up. Even had a legit excuse last time; mongoose was chasing the chickens!

Anyway thanks for the advice, got some thinkin to do before the next session :)

Colt808

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2011, 10:59:40 PM »
2. As mentioned, agriculture zoned, so I'm not aware of any noise ordinances. (but where could we check)


SEE: HRS 342F & HAR 11-46

The ordinance is mainly worded for construction and machinery, but based solely on allowable sound levels...11-46-4 states the maximum permissible level is 70dB for agricultural zoned areas. Firearms average more than 150dB, so you can technically be cited if you violate:

Quote
(c) Noise levels shall not exceed the maximum permissible sound levels for more than ten per cent of the time within any twenty minute period, except by permit or variance' issued under sections 11-46-7 and 11-46-8.


The way I read it, you can blaze away continuously for 2 minutes, wait 20 minutes, then repeat and still be in compliance of the orninance. That's not to say your neighbor can't still call the police and make a complaint. But just knowing the law, gives you a leg up on 90% of the officers that might respond.

***Note: This is NOT a criminal matter. Unless a responding officer witnesses the disturbance and is willing to testify to the levels (HPD does not carry sound measuring devices). You'll most likely get a warning.
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Funtimes

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2011, 12:45:00 AM »
Just don't shoot more then 120 rounds in twenty minutes :)

thewrench

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2011, 07:15:13 AM »
Thanks for pointing me in the right direction guys.
The noise ordinances were very helpful, thanks for that too.

I will probably go down to the police station next week and see what I learn there (making sure to take notes and names :) )

[§342F-6]  Inspection of premises.  The director, in accordance with law, may enter and inspect any building or place to investigate an actual or suspected source of excessive noise, to ascertain compliance or noncompliance with this chapter, any rule or standard adopted by the department pursuant to this chapter, or any permit or other approval issued by the department pursuant to this chapter, and to make reasonable tests in connection therewith.

This makes me a little nervous, but it mentions "in accordance with law" which I assume to mean "with probable cause"

I've had trouble with a different neighbor, and don't want to start the "call the county/state/army again unless I know I'm in the right. (yes, the department of the army came out last time!)

I'm not going to lie, though, I would be just fine with 2 min on, 18 minutes adjusting targets, et cetera  O0


EDIT: I need to dig up the form the county made us sign when we built our house- says something like "we know this is ag land- we promise never to complain about farming related noises ever ever ever" I think it mostly relates to the sugar company, but if this particular neighbor signed it, it would be like my noise violating permit  :shaka:

Old Guy

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2011, 07:42:21 PM »
I'd suggest checking with the State Noise and Radiation Branch First to see if shooting noise is OK on the  property.

Also check with the zoning people too if shooting is allowed on ag land.

Then go from there.

Funtimes

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2011, 09:23:18 PM »
I'd suggest checking with the State Noise and Radiation Branch First to see if shooting noise is OK on the  property.

Also check with the zoning people too if shooting is allowed on ag land.

Then go from there.

Well it should be.. part of AG land is taking care of varmint...

Teichi

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2011, 09:41:02 PM »
It's too bad we are not a class III state. Suppressors would solve the noise complaints.
Shooting varmints on private property will still require a wildlife control permit. It's not that difficult to get, but you will need to file a monthly report and it is species specific.

Colt808

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2011, 01:00:16 AM »
Well it should be.. part of AG land is taking care of varmint...

^^^^THIS!!!^^^^

Plant low maintenance fruit trees and produce. Should your neighbors complain again, you complain right back. Just say theres a mongoose and bulbul invasion threatening your crops (and livelihood). If necessary pay the fee and get a pest control permit, then you'll have a piece of paper to tell the neighbors to f*ck off.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Cougar8045

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2011, 01:07:10 AM »
Well it should be.. part of AG land is taking care of varmint...

^^^^THIS!!!^^^^

Plant low maintenance fruit trees and produce. Should your neighbors complain again, you complain right back. Just say theres a mongoose and bulbul invasion threatening your crops (and livelihood). If necessary pay the fee and get a pest control permit, then you'll have a piece of paper to tell the neighbors to f*ck off.
Also, you I would think you could invoke that permit for target shooting, as well.  After all, you have to be proficient in order to make a clean kill.  You-"You don't want the mongoose to suffer do you?  Do you?  Have you no decency, sir?!"  Worth a shot, anyway, imo.
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

Colt808

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2011, 02:17:37 AM »
Also, you I would think you could invoke that permit for target shooting, as well.  After all, you have to be proficient in order to make a clean kill.  You-"You don't want the mongoose to suffer do you?  Do you?  Have you no decency, sir?!"  Worth a shot, anyway, imo.

True, but once there's paper saying they can, I wouldn't bother explaining anything. It'd just open them up to some bureaucratic BS...running an unauthorized range, lead contamination, etc.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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Cougar8045

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2011, 02:33:17 AM »
Also, you I would think you could invoke that permit for target shooting, as well.  After all, you have to be proficient in order to make a clean kill.  You-"You don't want the mongoose to suffer do you?  Do you?  Have you no decency, sir?!"  Worth a shot, anyway, imo.

True, but once there's paper saying they can, I wouldn't bother explaining anything. It'd just open them up to some bureaucratic BS...running an unauthorized range, lead contamination, etc.
Hmmm, in the words of Peter Griffin, "Touche, salesman, touche."  In all seriousness, you're probably right.  Just tell them that you were under assault by a hoarde of mongoose(s) (Mongeese?), and be done with it.
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

Tom_G

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2011, 06:44:33 AM »
  In all seriousness, you're probably right.  Just tell them that you were under assault by a hoarde of mongoose(s) (Mongeese?), and be done with it.

"They're coming right for us!"
The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

crazy cat

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2011, 05:45:21 PM »
There's no such thing as an "unauthorized range" 'cause there's no process to authorize one...and so the assumption is that it's legal.  Everything is legal until and unless the government passes a specific law making it illegal.  As long as you have a safe backstop, tell the neighbors to go suck eggs.  IF the police actually come, and you get really lucky, they'll arrest you and (after winning the lawsuit) you'll never have to work again.  I know several people here who have been in this situation (neighbors called the cops) and it always goes the same way.  They cops will TELL you that you can't shoot, so you tell them you're going to keep shooting, and they can either arrest you, or leave.  So they mumble something threatening, and leave. 

I don't know how the noise thing works on Oahu, but on the Big Island, loud noises are only illegal between 10pm and 6am.  That's why we only have night shoots on July 4th and New Year's Eve.

Colt808

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Re: Shooting on private property
« Reply #19 on: September 12, 2011, 12:41:39 AM »
There's no such thing as an "unauthorized range" 'cause there's no process to authorize one...and so the assumption is that it's legal.  Everything is legal until and unless the government passes a specific law making it illegal.  As long as you have a safe backstop, tell the neighbors to go suck eggs.  IF the police actually come, and you get really lucky, they'll arrest you and (after winning the lawsuit) you'll never have to work again.  I know several people here who have been in this situation (neighbors called the cops) and it always goes the same way.  They cops will TELL you that you can't shoot, so you tell them you're going to keep shooting, and they can either arrest you, or leave.  So they mumble something threatening, and leave. 

I don't know how the noise thing works on Oahu, but on the Big Island, loud noises are only illegal between 10pm and 6am.  That's why we only have night shoots on July 4th and New Year's Eve.

I never make assumptions regarding matters of law. Nor do I underestimate the depths of which interpretations of "law" can stoop. That said, the term "unauthorized range" was to illustrate the facetious nature of bureaucratic BS and in direct reference to the suggestion of telling the police anything. So I'll just repeat and clarify: Once there is paper authorizing pest control on the property, that is all the explaining necessary. If the police are called, address the matter by showing the papers, then exercise your Fifth Amendment right. (or as kids would say STFU)  :thumbsup:

Getting arrested is not something I'd consider lucky, nor would I ever see it as some kind of pay day. In most cases, an officers qualified immunity gets the suit tossed. Sure one can appeal, but it'll come down to how far you or your attorney want to push. As for knowing people who got away with doing something by telling cops what's what? Well I say good for them, but it's not what I consider a good source for giving advice. Circumstances and an officers experience level will vary. You just never know what an officer might find suspicious enough to detain/arrest someone. Not worth the risk.

Back on topic...If you're looking at HRS, you're right. There is no mention of shooting ranges or the procedures for creating one. Why? Simple. That's something left to individual counties. Here on Oahu, its under 41-6 of the Revised Ordinances of Honolulu. The OP's friend might not be charging for use, but calling any part of his property a target, shooting, or practice range opens up a can of worms that takes away from what he was asking.
They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.
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