Isn't Arizona an open carry state?  It's hard to say whether adding additional firearms into this mix would have made the situation better or worse.

Yes Arizona is an open and/or concealed carry state (without any necessary permit)

Having said that though, people tend to be nicer as a whole, knowing that everybody could be armed.

"An armed society is a polite society"


These yahoos however, were not from Arizona.

There are serious problems with this family if they believe that engaging law enforcement in a brawl is "ok".

I watched the video below with the chief of police explaining everything in the video and I believe the cops did the best they could and showed remarkable restraint. He also explained when a "good Samaritan" should step in and assist officers. Those people had obviously trained on how to fight the police and what to do when tazed and pepper sprayed. Everything made sense when he explained why the officers didn't have everyone handcuffed.

Remarkable restraint doesn't even begin to describe how much control those officers had..... that family is lucky they're all not dead.

How many times did the cops yell at them to get down?

I would have team up and OC one at the time and cuff them all. Sort later.

Really hard to tell what's going on in a melee like that.  I saw in the followup videos that three "civilians" came to the aid of the officers before the backups arrived and were later honored by the PD for their actions.

I was kind of thinking to myself (I have a CCW and routinely carry) what I would have done if I came across this situation (and it was before I got crippled up a couple of years ago and were still able-bodied.)

My first instinct would have been to wade in to help out the police.  But  my conclusion (in the comfort of my couch and my feet up on the coffee table)  was that if I were armed, I'd probably stay out of it for fear of having to draw my  gun and be mistaken (in my civilian clothes) for one of the "family" and be targeted by the police.  If I were not armed (unlikely!) I would  have stepped in to help, risking getting clobbered by the cops OR the family by mistake.

Tough one.  I was glad to see the officers all got out of it with their lives.  Tough noogies on the tough guy who got killed.

Again, in the comfort of my couch and my feet up on the coffee table... oh, and my cane leaning against the wall.

But it helps to think about tactical decisions BEFORE they happen, even if they are as weird as this one.

What would YOU have done if you were a legally armed civilian?

Terry, 230RN

Really hard to tell what's going on in a melee like that.  I saw in the followup videos that three "civilians" came to the aid of the officers before the backups arrived and were later honored by the PD for their actions.

I was kind of thinking to myself (I have a CCW and routinely carry) what I would have done if I came across this situation (and it was before I got crippled up a couple of years ago and were still able-bodied.)

My first instinct would have been to wade in to help out the police.  But  my conclusion (in the comfort of my couch and my feet up on the coffee table)  was that if I were armed, I'd probably stay out of it for fear of having to draw my  gun and be mistaken (in my civilian clothes) for one of the "family" and be targeted by the police.  If I were not armed (unlikely!) I would  have stepped in to help, risking getting clobbered by the cops OR the family by mistake.

Tough one.  I was glad to see the officers all got out of it with their lives.  Tough noogies on the tough guy who got killed.

Again, in the comfort of my couch and my feet up on the coffee table... oh, and my cane leaning against the wall.

But it helps to think about tactical decisions BEFORE they happen, even if they are as weird as this one.

What would YOU have done if you were a legally armed civilian?

Terry, 230RN

It is tough to decide.

I think I would maintain a distance and not get involved in the scuffle.  If I saw someone pull a gun and point it at an officer, I'd warn him as loud as I could, but with that many people moving and falling and fighting -- I'd be reluctant to draw.

I'd have someone hold my gun if I decided to jump in.  I wouldn't want to introduce another weapon into the chaos and risk having it taken from me.

When Cops are on scene, you have to let them do their job.  If it's a situation where a Cop is about the be shot, and I have a perfect shot with no chance of missing and hitting someone else, then MAYBE I'd draw and fire. 

I think in certain circumstances, it's better for the Cops to retreat, make sure the family can't flee in their vehicle, and wait for the situation to calm down.  You keep a safe distance and have your senior Cop talk to the head of the family.  It might not work, but obviously trying to meet resistance with force wasn't a great decision either.

"When Cops are on scene, you have to let them do their job.  If it's a situation where a Cop is about the be shot, and I have a perfect shot with no chance of missing and hitting someone else, then MAYBE I'd draw and fire."

That's why all my carry guns have laser sights and I practice with the range lights off.  But it was a tough situation, and the cops  apparently could not imagine being attacked just by walking up and trying to investigate what was going on.  I'd also hate to have to drop my gun on the gritty grindy ground if an LEO ordered me to do so.

Terry

If you did that and a cop saw you were about to shoot someone, wouldn't you risk getting shot up by the cops?

If you did that and a cop saw you were about to shoot someone, wouldn't you risk getting shot up by the cops?

Sometimes good deeds get punished.

I believe a Cop would draw his weapon and order me to drop mine before firing.  Hopefully he's got good lungs and the rest of the noise doesn't drown him out. 

Anytime you draw a gun, you have the risk of someone mistaking you as a bad guy.  You're not in uniform, so you have to be aware of what people around you are doing. 

There have been CCW holders trying to stop a bad guy who wound up getting shot dead by Cops.  If you ever discharged a handgun without hearing protection, you know there's little chance of you hearing the Cop behind you yelling "DROP THE GUN!"  That's exactly what happened to one CCW I read about.

Use all your senses.  Look around you.  The guy you are shooting at may not be the only threat.

When I bought my ID holder to put my CCW permit in, I was just wanting a double-windowed case for license and permit together if I ever need to show to LE.  That's when I saw all these "CCW Badge" cases you can buy that have a real-looking badge inside.  It's supposed to be so you hang it on your belt, in a shirt pocket, or with a lanyard around your neck.  If you draw, the Cops may hold their fire if they see a badge.  After some researching, I decided against it.  One more thing to have to deal with if I draw.

If you did that and a cop saw you were about to shoot someone, wouldn't you risk getting shot up by the cops?

Heh.  Certainly not by the cop who was about to be bashed by the bad guy. 

Concealed carry "badges" are universally put down and ridiculed, at least on the mainland gun boards.  It's as if they were somehow childish and indicate you're a cop wannabe, but this is one case where something like that might be handy.

 See:
http://images.info.com/search?qcat=images&r_cop=xxx&qkw=concealed+carry+badge

I chuckled to myself when I saw them on display at a local cop shop, but this discussion made me think a little more about it.  Frankly, I wouldn't buy one since there's little chance of my encountering something like that, and nowadays instead of "wading into" a melee like that, I'd have to "hobble into" it, cane in one hand, gun in the other, and waving the badge around in my third hand. 

But maybe there's something to be said for them beyond the ridicule thrown out there by the "orthodox" members of the gun community.

I just don't know.  But once again, it pays to think about tactical situations before they happen.

Terry, 230RN