as far as i can discern, and i am by no means a lawyer, i'm not allowed to own a rifle with a barrel under 16" but an AR upper by it self isn't considered a firearm so really what's to stop me from buying out of state and bringing it back to HI while only registering the lower?

as far as i can discern, and i am by no means a lawyer, i'm not allowed to own a rifle with a barrel under 16" but an AR upper by it self isn't considered a firearm so really what's to stop me from buying out of state and bringing it back to HI while only registering the lower?

Nothing. Nothing is stopping you from buying it (upper) off the net out here. The second you put it on a lower you are in violation.   

The question I have is why bother while here?  You can't shoot it or possesses them as a complete firearm in this state.

well i guess being allowed to have part of it is the first step to being allowed to have all of it.

well i guess being allowed to have part of it is the first step to being allowed to have all of it.

Or the first step in not allowing short uppers here.

as far as i can discern, and i am by no means a lawyer, i'm not allowed to own a rifle with a barrel under 16" but an AR upper by it self isn't considered a firearm so really what's to stop me from buying out of state and bringing it back to HI while only registering the lower?

well i guess being allowed to have part of it is the first step to being allowed to have all of it.

Uhmmm NO. You can have the short barrel and you can have it installed on an upper. BUT it all stops being parts IF you possess a lower that will accept it. Forget about HRS...just set it aside as "in addition to" crap, because you'll have bigger issues to deal with. Having all the parts to complete is a violation of NFA rules and punishable with a fine up to a $250,000 and 10 years in a Federal Penitentiary. *Unless you've got the forms on file and paid for a stamp. Which you can not get living in Hawaii. Based on that, there's nothing to interpret and nothing to ask 'Martha' about...it's Federal Law.

You don't have to (and shouldn’t) take my word on this. There's case law regarding this matter and many have been successfully prosecuted for parts.

Constructive possession can screw ya!

Constructive possession can screw ya!

It sure can.

Quote from: Aegis808 on September 09, 2011, 12:12:52 PM

i guess it would fall into this thread but what if i own a AR-15 pistol but only register the lower and keep the upper separate but still in my home?

Hmmm, that's a good question. Does the state ever charge for constructive intent or is that only a federal thing?

The thing about constructive possession is that you need to give them a reason to enter your home to make the case against you.  Similar example is the 30 round AR mag issue, reading the law verbatim you could be prosecuted for using them since there are AR pistols in the world.  However, it is highly unlikely you will catch a charge for an AR magazine unless youve already committed a crime with the firearm it was inserted into, especially if the firearm was a illegally possessed "assault pistol."

Quote from: 2aHawaii on September 09, 2011, 12:20:25 PM

Quote from: Aegis808 on September 09, 2011, 12:12:52 PM

i guess it would fall into this thread but what if i own a AR-15 pistol but only register the lower and keep the upper separate but still in my home?

Hmmm, that's a good question. Does the state ever charge for constructive intent or is that only a federal thing?

The thing about constructive possession is that you need to give them a reason to enter your home to make the case against you.  Similar example is the 30 round AR mag issue, reading the law verbatim you could be prosecuted for using them since there are AR pistols in the world.  However, it is highly unlikely you will catch a charge for an AR magazine unless youve already committed a crime with the firearm it was inserted into, especially if the firearm was a illegally possessed "assault pistol."

You could say the same thing about a stash of meth; I still wouldn't recommend having it.

Thinking about it further, we wouldn't get much out of removing the assault pistol ban without getting the magazine capacity law out of the way too, and that one seems set in stone.

Hello Hawaii.
Interesting thread you have here.  We might have something that could fly in HI.  We have been building AR pistols for a while now, but recently we received ATF approval for an AR pistol with a forward vertical grip, WITHOUT the need for NFA paperwork.  The XO-26 is NOT an AOW.  Interestingly enough, the feds stated that it was not a pistol, not a rifle, not an AOW, but rather just a "firearm."  That being said, I believe your state law would define it as a pistol since the barrel length is 11.5" long.

That brings up concerns about the Hi Assault Pistol ban.  We have a couple of physical characteristics that have allowed us to build these for Ca sales.  The first characteristic is a bullet button.  I realize that Hi has not ruled one way or another on this characteristic.  I think it may be worth while to submit a sample to your state DOJ to render an opinion (if they do that sort of thing.) 

Secondly, our Ca models must ship with a "sled" installed.  This device is a delrin plug inserted in the magazine well (and locked in place by the bullet button.)  With this sled installed, the pistol is effectively a single shot pistol.  It is a long story to explain it, but this is done for transfer purposes  in Ca and can be removed by the consumer legally.  Since the firearm is marketed as a "Self Extracting Single Shot Pistol," we think that it might have viability in HI.  The model on the lower even reads "SE-SSP," !!!

Any thoughts?

Also, what state 2a attorney do you recommend?  I have a feeling I might need one.   



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We have some stuff in works on this already. The problem is CA has developed a definition for a fixed magazine. We, as of right now (subject to change in the relatively near future) do not have this yet. I can say that it is be worked on through some avenues. As far as 2A attorneys, we don't really have that many here. Kevin O'grady is the only state NRA attorney.

I would be willing to try and register one though if some sort of arrangement could be worked out as a test case.

Thanks for the referral.  I will contact him.

Test cases are great so long as it doesn't involve actual physical possession in Hi prior to a determination by a court or government body.  The last thing we want to see is anyone saddled with civil or criminal penalties for simply possessing one of our products.  Do you have a legal mechanism to achieve standing to petition your courts or governing body without actually importing it?

Obviously it's much easier to first try to contact the appropriate regulatory powers to seek an interpretation.  ...anyone got Martha's phone number.   

Starting next month, our rep will be visiting Hi shops with our rifles.  Hopefully the pistols will follow after we figure out the details. 

BTT any new information? I would think that with a bullet button everything would be good to go. If I need a tool to disassemble my magazine from my pistol then how is it considered detachable? I define it as a fixed mag until I unfix it with a tool. Lol 

Unfortunately no new information.  We basically need someone within the state that would be willing to see if it could be registered with a single shot sled and a bullet button. 

Unfortunately no new information.  We basically need someone within the state that would be willing to see if it could be registered with a single shot sled and a bullet button.

Sent you a PM.

can I get a PM with some info? i want to call HPD and talk about the description and utilize the correct and legal term for a 'bullet button' as a 'Mag Lock' but will wait for advice.

ok I jumped the gun and called anyway.

 Definition
Reference §HRS 134-1

"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:


(1)  An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;


(2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;


(3)  A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;


(4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;


(5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or


(6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code §921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.

I was told that the magazine had to be permanant by the female who took my call and I do not see that in the description of an Assault Pistol. Do they get to make up the law as they go in Hawaii? I told her that I needed a 'tool' to detach the magazine and she said then it is detachable. So, I asked her what it takes to make weapons full auto and she said it may need some special parts and 'tools'. I don't know what to think anymore...

since we are on the topic:
Is a 30 round magazine for HK94 carbine legal to have in Hawaii???

First a question then I will give my best answer on the point of the button in question.

So if this product did allow people to bypass the magazine detachable from outside the pistol grip what firearms would be allowed now that are not currently allowed? THe ruger 10/22 charger pistol is the only one that comes to mind but I have to admit I am no firearms expert. What other firearms would be allowed?


Here is my answer from someone in the LEO field.
I do not think this button would allow one to bypass the 1st section considering magazines outside of the pistol grip. After all the first rule does not say anything about detachable. Now if we look at the initial definition that says the rules apply to a semi auto with a detachable magazine we can see that if we make the magazine non detachable then we never run into the problem of it being a possible assault pistol.

So the question comes down to whether the button makes the magazine non detachable. I would say that the magazine would still be considered detachable since it is relatively easy to remove the magazine.  Now the law is not explicit so this is kind of a gray area. So I think we would need to look at the intent of the legislature when the law was passed. I don't know the actual discussion on the issue so I will do my best to speculate. They probably wanted to restrict firearms that had some significant capability of shooting people rapidly, essential a pistol meant to assault someone, civilian or police. So if a product like this made you need a "tool" to remove the magazine but it could still be done rapidly then I do not think they would consider it to be allowed. However if the product made the magazine take some time and effort to remove the magazine to the point that the pistol would not be such a danger if used to shoot large numbers of people then perhaps they would consider it to be allowed.
If we look at blackpowder pistols we can see they do not need to be registered. They can still be deadly but the amount of time needed to reload and shoot again in a tactical situation make them obviously a poor choice in a gunfight.

So ultimately I would think that if the product requires a "tool" to detach the magazine but the magazine could still be detached rapidly and replaced rapidly that the firearm would not be exempt from the assault pistol rules.

Feel free to disagree or ask for clarification etc.