"Punishment" for packing heat without a permit? (Read 24561 times)

monster796

"Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« on: May 06, 2015, 11:25:05 AM »
Just as the title states, what is the punishment in Hawaii for carrying a pistols without a permit? Any references would be helpful. Any actual cases would be awesome as well. I hear stories a lot about locals packing regurdless of the laws and got me curious. I leave Oahu in a couple months (YAY), can't wait to leave this unconstitutional place :O

mauidog

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2015, 12:33:30 PM »
It is a misdemeanor to carry a handgun in Hawaii without a carry permit. (Hi. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 134-51.) Penalties include a fine of up to $2,000, up to one year in jail, or both.

Quote
[PART III.  DANGEROUS WEAPONS]

 

     §134-51  Deadly weapons; prohibitions; penalty.  (a)  Any person, not authorized by law, who carries concealed upon the person's self or within any vehicle used or occupied by the person or who is found armed with any dirk, dagger, blackjack, slug shot, billy, metal knuckles, pistol, or other deadly or dangerous weapon shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and may be immediately arrested without warrant by any sheriff, police officer, or other officer or person.  Any weapon, above enumerated, upon conviction of the one carrying or possessing it under this section, shall be summarily destroyed by the chief of police or sheriff.

     (b)  Whoever knowingly possesses or intentionally uses or threatens to use a deadly or dangerous weapon while engaged in the commission of a crime shall be guilty of a class C felony. [L 1937, c 123, §1; RL 1945, §11114; RL 1955, §267-25; HRS §727-25; ren L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; am L 1977, c 191, §2; am L 1983, c 267, §1; gen ch 1985; am L 1989, c 211, §10; am L 1990, c 195, §3 and c 281, §11; am L 1992, c 87, §4; am L 1993, c 226, §1; am L 1999, c 285, §2]

 

Case Notes

 

  Probable cause for violation of section when police officer saw gun in vehicle stopped for speeding.  430 F.2d 58.

  License to carry weapon as justification.  10 H. 585.

  Weapons discovered in automobile lawfully stopped for traffic offense; legality of search and seizure considered.  50 H. 461, 443 P.2d 149.

  Mentioned in connection with arrest without warrant after seeing pistol in automobile.  52 H. 497, 479 P.2d 800.

  "Other deadly or dangerous weapon" is limited to instruments whose sole design and purpose is to inflict bodily injury or death.  55 H. 531, 523 P.2d 299.

  A "diver's knife" is neither a "dangerous weapon" nor a "dagger".  "Deadly and dangerous weapon" is one designed primarily as a weapon or diverted from normal use and prepared for combat.  56 H. 374, 537 P.2d 14.

  Cane, butterfly and kitchen knives are not deadly or dangerous weapons.  56 H. 642, 547 P.2d 587.

  Sheathed sword-cane and wooden knuckles with shark's teeth were "deadly or dangerous weapons".  58 H. 514, 572 P.2d 1222.

  Statute does not require that weapons be "concealed" within the vehicle.  58 H. 514, 572 P.2d 1222.

  Vehicle stop being proper, seizure of weapons in plain view was authorized.  58 H. 514, 572 P.2d 1222.

  Shotgun is a deadly or dangerous weapon.  61 H. 135, 597 P.2d 210.

  A .22 caliber rifle is a "deadly or dangerous weapon".  63 H. 147, 621 P.2d 384.

  Nunchaku sticks are not per se deadly or dangerous weapons.  64 H. 485, 643 P.2d 546.

  The crime underlying a subsection (b) offense is, as a matter of law, an included offense of the subsection (b) offense, within the meaning of §701-109(4)(a), and defendant should not have been convicted of both the subsection (b) offense and the underlying second degree murder offense; thus, defendant’s conviction of the subsection (b) offense reversed.  88 H. 407, 967 P.2d 239.

  "Billy" as used in this section refers to "policeman’s club" or "truncheon"; a club-like implement designed for purpose of striking or killing fish is not a "billy"; section extends only to weapons deadly or dangerous to people.  10 H. App. 404, 876 P.2d 1348.

  Cited:  43 H. 347, 367; 10 H. App. 584, 880 P.2d 213.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

2aHawaii

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Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2015, 01:33:54 PM »
Try this one

[§134-23]  Place to keep loaded firearms other than pistols and revolvers; penalty.  (a)  Except as provided in section 134-5, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:
     (1)  A place of repair;

     (2)  A target range;

     (3)  A licensed dealer's place of business;

     (4)  An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;

     (5)  A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or

     (6)  A police station.

     "Enclosed container" means a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm.
     (b)  Any person violating this section by carrying or possessing a loaded firearm other than a pistol or revolver shall be guilty of a class B felony. [L 2006, c 66, pt of §1]
 
Case Notes
 
  Discussed:  911 F. Supp. 2d 972 (2012).

[§134-24]  Place to keep unloaded firearms other than pistols and revolvers; penalty.  (a)  Except as provided in section 134-5, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:
     (1)  A place of repair;

     (2)  A target range;

     (3)  A licensed dealer's place of business;

     (4)  An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;

     (5)  A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or

     (6)  A police station.

     "Enclosed container" means a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm.
     (b)  Any person violating this section by carrying or possessing an unloaded firearm other than a pistol or revolver shall be guilty of a class C felony. [L 2006, c 66, pt of §1]

[§134-25]  Place to keep pistol or revolver; penalty.  (a)  Except as provided in sections 134-5 and 134-9, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:
     (1)  A place of repair;

     (2)  A target range;

     (3)  A licensed dealer's place of business;

     (4)  An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;

     (5)  A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or

     (6)  A police station.

     "Enclosed container" means a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm.
     (b)  Any person violating this section by carrying or possessing a loaded or unloaded pistol or revolver shall be guilty of a class B felony. [L 2006, c 66, pt of §1]
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

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monster796

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2015, 01:55:04 PM »
Thanks for the input! Yea that's what I thought 2ahawaii, but evidently some folks still carry with it being a felony and all, is it not true that even in a true self defense situation Hawaii will still bone a person? Has anything like that came up?

2aHawaii

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Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2015, 02:51:50 PM »
Thanks for the input! Yea that's what I thought 2ahawaii, but evidently some folks still carry with it being a felony and all, is it not true that even in a true self defense situation Hawaii will still bone a person? Has anything like that came up?

Probably. We also don't promote any illegal actions. Most people consult an attorney for good/qualified legal advice.
I am not a lawyer.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." - United States Constitution Amendment 2 & Hawaii State Constitution Article 1 Section 17

Buying from Amazon? Click through here

eyeeatingfish

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2015, 07:37:48 PM »
Thanks for the input! Yea that's what I thought 2ahawaii, but evidently some folks still carry with it being a felony and all, is it not true that even in a true self defense situation Hawaii will still bone a person? Has anything like that came up?

I have never heard such a thing but it wouldn't surprise me if someone somewhere did pack a pistol.

If you were carrying illegally and there came a case where you used it to save a life I am sure you would still be arrested and likely be charged because technically a crime did occur. Whether you would get off because of your good action is anyone's guess. I wouldn't want to be the test case.

surfmaster

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2015, 03:39:09 PM »
As an example, you are at a rally at the State Capitol and you see someone lunging at the governor with a knife, and you pull out and fire at the perp with your Glock that you're illegally carrying.

You would still be charged with the crime of illegally carrying - even though you saved the life of the governor.

It's unfortunate, but that's probably what would happen. It would be better to do nothing and allow the governor to be attacked than to be the test case. Exceptions if the gov is your friend or family member. 


I have never heard such a thing but it wouldn't surprise me if someone somewhere did pack a pistol.

If you were carrying illegally and there came a case where you used it to save a life I am sure you would still be arrested and likely be charged because technically a crime did occur. Whether you would get off because of your good action is anyone's guess. I wouldn't want to be the test case.

asinapple8805

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2015, 10:14:08 PM »
the legal ramifications are bad, but imagine the possible real life consequences of being caught with a gun.

This whole hypothetical is based off the idea that a police officer will arrest you peacefully.  Since local police officers are probably not accustomed to seeing civilians carrying, what if they react to a civilan carrying by drawing, aiming, and possibly firing?

I know that I don't want to be the victim of a crime, and i know that i wouldn't want to be convicted of carrying illegally, but i definitely don't want to be shot by HPD for carrying illegally.

we can debate all we want about what a reasonable police officer would do and whether the reasonable police officer would handle the situation without it escalating too quickly.  The problem is, not all police officers are reasonable, and even the reasonable police officer will occasionally act unreasonably.  Sure it wouldn't be too bad if the worst you faced was an arrest, but at the far end of the spectrum you face possibly being killed by on or off duty law enforcement.

Aiea78

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Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2015, 11:48:45 PM »
LOL sorry Gov we ain't being paid to protect nor serve you!

Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

Aiea78

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Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2015, 11:52:14 PM »
asinapple the worst case far end scenario to me is to watch a loved one be killed w/o acting to stop the killer first.
Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

asinapple8805

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2015, 12:02:08 AM »
asinapple the worst case far end scenario to me is to watch a loved one be killed w/o acting to stop the killer first.

i see your point and i understand where you are coming from.  flipping that, what if your loved ones were witnesses to you being gunned down by law enforcement because you were illegally carrying?  imagine how they would feel in that situation.

i'm not saying that carrying is bad, nor am i saying that the streets are completely safe.  my earlier post tried to answer the topic question--the punishment for carrying illegally--to which my answer was, a possible punishment could be death.

Aiea78

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Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2015, 03:23:49 AM »
Can't believe I let myself get sucked into another hypothetical no win thread LOL 
but
It is the b.s. "state law" in direct opposition to both national and state constitution to our right that is illegal. This state is one of the last trying to hold out but they will have to follow the constitution now that the fire has been lit.  And my loved ones will rightfully hold the LEO accountable for their actions if while I was trying to protect them they shoot me not the real criminal.  Look at the states with CHL, do the cops shoot the permit holders ever, not.  They're usually not even around is why the permit holder had to take action!  Anyways, enough with the stories, nobody here carries, it would be too easy to get pulled over for any number of things and blam nailed.  So either stay at home or out as potential unarmed victims we remain until such time. 

« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 03:36:16 AM by Aiea78 »
Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

Aiea78

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Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2015, 03:34:09 AM »
How would the officer know you aren't undercover or something?  I would think the carrier would be acting in self defense and not in aggression that is the key here?  Drop your weapon or I'll Shoot!  Is clearly not Give Me Your Money MFKR for example.  Which one would you draw on?

In the case of the capitol above I think it would also be clear the carrier trying to protect the gov.  (Knife!) (pow pow pow dependent on proximity of innocents, first action might be to shove the guy out of the way, etc.)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2015, 03:43:38 AM by Aiea78 »
Assault Rifle? What I have here is an Anti-Assault Rifle.
Proud Member 2016 2a Day Dozen open holster carry crew yo

Kingkeoni

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2015, 12:59:56 PM »
the legal ramifications are bad, but imagine the possible real life consequences of being caught with a gun.

This whole hypothetical is based off the idea that a police officer will arrest you peacefully.  Since local police officers are probably not accustomed to seeing civilians carrying, what if they react to a civilan carrying by drawing, aiming, and possibly firing?

Of course they will fire on you.
Not too long ago a police officer shot and killed a drunk driver in Waikiki.
His reasoning was "well, he could have killed someone with his car"
Did the drunk driver hit any pedestrians? No.
Did the drunk driver injure anyone else? No
Did the drunk driver hurt anyone?  No
But the over reacting police officer was praised as a hero because he averted a possible crime that might have hypothetically occured .

Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

eyeeatingfish

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2015, 06:17:43 PM »
Of course they will fire on you.
Not too long ago a police officer shot and killed a drunk driver in Waikiki.
His reasoning was "well, he could have killed someone with his car"
Did the drunk driver hit any pedestrians? No.
Did the drunk driver injure anyone else? No
Did the drunk driver hurt anyone?  No
But the over reacting police officer was praised as a hero because he averted a possible crime that might have hypothetically occured .


I think you are jumping to conclusions here. A cop seeing a gun is not going to mean the cops is just going to shoot you. Cops can carry off duty and they know that, if they just shot anyone they saw with a holstered firearm they might be shooting their own coworker. You don't want to make any sudden movements but they aren't going to just shoot at the sight or a gun.

That is also a gross mischaracterization of the event in Waikiki.

macsak

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2015, 07:19:28 PM »
Probably. We also don't promote any illegal actions. Most people consult an attorney for good/qualified legal advice.

no one here does anything illegal...

kong

"Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2015, 11:23:40 AM »
There are even more fed Leo's then one would think doing many undercover operations sometimes without hpd knowledge. There is a pucker factor, I would assume, but if I were a ccw holder and uniformed officers came with weapons drawn on everyone they are now in control of the scene so I'd obey their commands.

monster796

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2015, 01:00:11 PM »
[§134-23]  Place to keep loaded firearms other than pistols and revolvers; penalty.  (a)  Except as provided in section 134-5, all firearms shall be confined to the possessor's place of business, residence, or sojourn; provided that it shall be lawful to carry unloaded firearms in an enclosed container from the place of purchase to the purchaser's place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places upon change of place of business, residence, or sojourn, or between these places and the following:
     (1)  A place of repair;

     (2)  A target range;

     (3)  A licensed dealer's place of business;

     (4)  An organized, scheduled firearms show or exhibit;

     (5)  A place of formal hunter or firearm use training or instruction; or

     (6)  A police station.

     "Enclosed container" means a rigidly constructed receptacle, or a commercially manufactured gun case, or the equivalent thereof that completely encloses the firearm.
     (b)  Any person violating this section by carrying or possessing a loaded firearm other than a pistol or revolver shall be guilty of a class B felony. [L 2006, c 66, pt of §1]
 
Case Notes
 
  Discussed:  911 F. Supp. 2d 972 (2012).

Slightly off topic, what if a person who owned firearms encountered some tough times, became homeless and sold all but one pistol. I wonder  if they could sue the state for the "place to keep" part?

mauidog

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2015, 01:49:42 PM »
Slightly off topic, what if a person who owned firearms encountered some tough times, became homeless and sold all but one pistol. I wonder  if they could sue the state for the "place to keep" part?

Hypothetically, if the homeless are state residents and allowed to vote, they should also be allowed to apply to own a firearm.  The question in my mind is, how does a homeless person keep a gun from being stolen?  To carry it on their person would require a CCW permit.

That's a classic Catch 22.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

macsak

Re: "Punishment" for packing heat without a permit?
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2015, 01:58:17 PM »
Slightly off topic, what if a person who owned firearms encountered some tough times, became homeless and sold all but one pistol. I wonder  if they could sue the state for the "place to keep" part?

i guess the question is, "is a tent on the kapalama canal a place of sojourn?"