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Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu. (Read 22438 times)

dustoff003

Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #40 on: August 04, 2015, 05:20:46 AM »
maybe salty0317 was the guy monster796 saw in the street? Damn this thread has went to shit.
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edster48

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #41 on: August 04, 2015, 05:33:52 AM »
Quote from: oldfart on August 04, 2015, 02:47:22 AM
Mr. Salty,
I don't totally disagree with your enthusiastic philosophy about open carry.
I do disagree with what you seem to consider to be normal behavior.
...
So please explain, at what point does normal behavior become alarming behavior to you?
...
Back in the 60's We used to shoot at soda cans from the front porch of my grandfather's store.
It was ok because you might see 1 car every hour. Or perhaps a cowboy on a horse.
Like it or not, times have changed.

This goes directly to the OP. Why? As you say, back in the day, we used to walk through the neighborhood carrying our pellet rifles and 22's as we set off to go hunting jack rabbits, possums or whatever. Nobody gave us a second glance. Same thing went for when we played Army or Cowboys and Indians, we ran around pretend shooting at each other for half the day and the only concern was that we didn't get too dirty and we cleaned up after ourselves. The mere sight of firearms, real or not, didn't send people into spasmodic fits, SWAT teams didn't descend on the Army players and disarm them.

What has changed? Attitudes.

The real question posed by the OP is, what has caused this change? I would agree with him that, in part, it's due to people becoming overly sensitive to the mere sight of a firearm. I agree that this is entirely due to the efforts of the government and anti gunners. This PC agenda has been force fed to our children via public schools and TV for the last 50 years, it's no wonder that ignorance and fear fairly abounds.

It's up to us to change that perception.

As far as guy racking a gun in a common area? Obviously unsafe firearm handling. The sad part is that most of us know so little about our neighbors that we can't simply talk to them about an incident like this.
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Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

GZire

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #42 on: August 04, 2015, 08:25:42 AM »
Quote from: salty0317 on August 03, 2015, 10:58:29 PM
Racked, racked, racked = clearing a chamber.

I see the NRA isn't providing appropriate training with regard to the handling of ammunition, too much emphasis on the hardware and not enough on the most dangerous element involved, the ammunition itself.
 
In one breath, ejecting live rounds isn't dangerous unless you've a box of firing pins laying around and in the next breath an empty firearm is dangerous when aimed at an empty roadway. That's a special sort of double standard nonsense, one for the books and I'll be sure to get some elements of that into the test questions ammunition handling section.

36. When in your living room, when is it safe to eject live rounds from your firearm?
     A) When no-one else is watching.
     B) When my box of firing pins is closed and more than 15' away around the corner in the hallway.
     C) When the chamber ejection path is ...

Would anyone here care to guess what happens when live ammunition is incidentally discharged outside the chamber of a firearm?


Playing Devil's advocate here, but rack rack rack doesn't always mean a cleared chamber.  If the extractor is broken, or if the casing is bulged, or if the rim of the casing is ripped/torn/rolled it could still mean a chambered cartridge.

Unless you physically see the chamber clear yourself you always assume it's loaded.
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monster796

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #43 on: August 04, 2015, 08:49:35 AM »
Quote from: salty0317 on August 04, 2015, 01:31:31 AM
And you're reaching to justify your position on harassing a person who was practicing their second amendment rights. You along with everyone else in here who agrees with calling the police on the guy who was racking his firearm are contributors to the demise of the second amendment. Whether you've the capacity to understand why that's the case or not is irrelevant, the fact remains that the second amendment is also being compromised by people like yourself setting hidden double standards not recognized by yourselves and perpetuating the very propaganda fear you pretend to stand against.
I'm done with this topic and the radicals who unwittingly perpetuate anti 2a propaganda.

Are gun rights being erroded in America, absolutely. Is pointing a gun loaded or not at homes and cars acceptable absolutely NOT, salty is saying it is perfectly fine to aim and handle a firearms at homes and cars. Point the gun in a damn safe direction. You condone pointing firearms at homes and cars is alarming. Open carry is great, I did it all the time in Virginia and police there thanked me and others for exercising our rights. If he had the gun in a safe direction that is great, I believe illegal as it is not his place to keep according to Hawaii but I wouldn't have cared. What does erode our rights, asides from liberals and tyranitical leaders, is folks like you salty that say "er derp gun at house is okay, point it at a car cool too" if I would have not said anything, that guy probably would have done it again, and blasted someone (talk about eroding rights, like some idiot blasting some one, even if no one does, the media would be all over it) . Because I believe he was aiming at homes and cars, he probably does not know "keep your finger off the trigger" it was relatively dark but I also believe his finger was on the trigger. I still can't believe you're condoning aiming at cars and homes and NOT in a SAFE DIRECTION.
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oldfart

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #44 on: August 04, 2015, 09:17:34 AM »
Quote from: edster48 on August 04, 2015, 05:33:52 AM
This goes directly to the OP. Why? As you say, back in the day, we used to walk through the neighborhood carrying our pellet rifles and 22's as we set off to go hunting jack rabbits, possums or whatever. Nobody gave us a second glance. Same thing went for when we played Army or Cowboys and Indians, we ran around pretend shooting at each other for half the day and the only concern was that we didn't get too dirty and we cleaned up after ourselves. The mere sight of firearms, real or not, didn't send people into spasmodic fits, SWAT teams didn't descend on the Army players and disarm them.

What has changed? Attitudes.

The real question posed by the OP is, what has caused this change? I would agree with him that, in part, it's due to people becoming overly sensitive to the mere sight of a firearm. I agree that this is entirely due to the efforts of the government and anti gunners. This PC agenda has been force fed to our children via public schools and TV for the last 50 years, it's no wonder that ignorance and fear fairly abounds.

It's up to us to change that perception.

As far as guy racking a gun in a common area? Obviously unsafe firearm handling. The sad part is that most of us know so little about our neighbors that we can't simply talk to them about an incident like this.
...
I believe the original question by the op was whether or not he did the right thing by calling the police. The general consensus is yes.
If you are talking about changes in attitudes, well I think we all have a pretty good idea about that.
Urbanization accompanied by population increases and rampant drug abuse. All of which contribute to crime increases. Along with the increase in crime, came the demonization of guns. It's easy to blame an inanimate object for unsolvable problems.
How to change minds and attitudes? That's a tough one. If it were an easy task, I wouldn't be divorced today. LOL.
Speaking for myself, I try to change people's perceptions by starting with my own family...children, siblings, inlaws, nieces and nephews.
In fact, my niece is supposed to be taking a pistol safety class next month.
Beyond that, I help out my coworkers with advice and ammo. Furthermore, I voluntarily assist with safety classes.
If we all did that, it would go a long way toward changing public perceptions.
Logged
What, Me Worry?

oldfart

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2015, 09:26:44 AM »
Quote from: GZire on August 04, 2015, 08:25:42 AM

Playing Devil's advocate here, but rack rack rack doesn't always mean a cleared chamber.  If the extractor is broken, or if the casing is bulged, or if the rim of the casing is ripped/torn/rolled it could still mean a chambered cartridge.

Unless you physically see the chamber clear yourself you always assume it's loaded.
...
Oh yeah rack rack rack does not equal clear chamber.
I had my extractor break a couple of years ago and that is exactly what happened.
I was at the range when it broke, but I did not feel it was necessary to go out to the road or parking lot to clear the chamber.LOL
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What, Me Worry?

GZire

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #46 on: August 04, 2015, 10:23:53 AM »
Quote from: oldfart on August 04, 2015, 09:26:44 AM
...
Oh yeah rack rack rack does not equal clear chamber.
I had my extractor break a couple of years ago and that is exactly what happened.
I was at the range when it broke, but I did not feel it was necessary to go out to the road or parking lot to clear the chamber.LOL


I think if you pointed your gun at a passing car on the freeway it would have gotten unloaded. :D
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salty0317

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #47 on: August 04, 2015, 03:48:28 PM »
I'm not going to argue whether or not the chamber was empty because no-one knows the answer to that question except the individual who was racking the slide. People don't typically rack the firearm many times over to load it. I'd have only assumed the guy was inspecting the firearm and maybe looking into the chamber could have been construed as aiming the firearm. I especially wouldn't have done anything after he went inside and nothing more happened with exception of 3 police cars pulling up in front of the guys place several minutes later.

Bottom line, this fear of firearms has been a growing issue and a giant step in the propaganda war began with DB Coopers High jacking back in 1971 where thereafter carryon firearms were banned on commercial airliners yet previous to that time they could be carried aboard with you. Many of us here were around when firearms could be carried aboard airliners. Who here remembers those days? Anyone? I would also assume most here would think such an act to be stupid and that's because you've been conditioned to think that way. Assume the worst and call the police is the new mantra.

It's a different world (therefore the second amendment has become archaic). Yes, I understand that conditioned perception. That said, I don't agree with it. It's only a matter of time and the second amendment will be repealed because of the current conditioning through intolerance.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 03:59:45 PM by salty0317 »
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Sodie

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #48 on: August 04, 2015, 05:47:29 PM »
Quote from: salty0317 on August 03, 2015, 10:58:29 PM
Racked, racked, racked = clearing a chamber.

And why do you clear a chamber?  Because you want to make sure there isn't a round in it.  If you KNOW it's clear, there's no reason to clear it...  So, this guy, who has a history of erratic behavior (as reported by the OP), takes what appears to be a firearm that HE DOESN'T KNOW IF IT HAS A ROUND IN THE CHAMBER OR NOT, and points it at a) occupied dwellings and 2) a well-trafficked street.  I don't care if it's 1854, 1954, or 2054, or whether it was before or after D.B. Cooper jumped out of an airliner, THAT'S IRRESPONSIBLE AND UNSAFE BEHAVIOR.  If I were they guy's neighbor, and I knew him to be a sane and reasonable individual, I probably would have gone over to chat with him about it.  HOWEVER, if I knew the guy behaved erratically and that his wife stared at my pregnant wife to the point of making us uncomfortable...  Yep, I'm calling the cops. 

I'm all for desensitizing people to the presence of firearms, and I've got nothing against open carry if the open carrier has decided that's the best choice for them.  Given the option, I would carry concealed.  I really dislike open carry when the open carrier chooses the weapon or manner of carry to intentionally shock people or make them uncomfortable.  THAT damages the cause of protecting our 2A rights.   :shaka:
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Hunter1007

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #49 on: August 04, 2015, 06:58:16 PM »
The way I look at it is if you truly felt that your safety was at risk by all means call the police. Only you can make that determination at that point in time. You may perceive a certain act when actually it might be something completely opposite. That's for the police determine. Now if this guy was just being an asshole that watched "john wick" too many times then so be it. Last I checked it was not against the law to be an asshole.

With that said, let me paint a picture that I'm sure many of us on this forum has experienced. Say this same asshole was at the range. Racking his slide like no ones business. Sweeping everyone down the line with a loaded pistol. How do you react? Supposedly said asshole is in a similar situation ie handling a firearm at a legal location acting a fool. Do you call the police at that point too? Let's kick it a notch... Your shooting with your pregnant wife on the next lane. What now?

The point I'm trying to make is many gun owners are untrained, unaware, and just plain stupid but that doesn't make them criminals with malice intent. We need to be careful in our determinations of others otherwise we turn in to one of those protectionist who want to take away 2a rights. In the end I say you did the right thing because no one was hurt. Anytime there is no shooting is always a win. But I would say you are skating a fine line.
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edster48

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2015, 07:53:28 PM »
Quote from: oldfart on August 04, 2015, 09:17:34 AM
...
I believe the original question by the op was whether or not he did the right thing by calling the police. The general consensus is yes.
If you are talking about changes in attitudes, well I think we all have a pretty good idea about that.
Urbanization accompanied by population increases and rampant drug abuse. All of which contribute to crime increases. Along with the increase in crime, came the demonization of guns. It's easy to blame an inanimate object for unsolvable problems.
How to change minds and attitudes? That's a tough one. If it were an easy task, I wouldn't be divorced today. LOL.
Speaking for myself, I try to change people's perceptions by starting with my own family...children, siblings, inlaws, nieces and nephews.
In fact, my niece is supposed to be taking a pistol safety class next month.
Beyond that, I help out my coworkers with advice and ammo. Furthermore, I voluntarily assist with safety classes.
If we all did that, it would go a long way toward changing public perceptions.


Yeah, I think I was combining Salty's post about open carry with this one. Sorry it was early.    :sleeping:

Calling HPD? Judgment call IMO. I probably wouldn't have until I'd talked to the guy, but I wasn't there, and don't live next to him. If in doubt, better safe than sorry.

Logged
Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

mauidog

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #51 on: August 04, 2015, 10:01:33 PM »
One thing to remember....  when the police get involved in your complaint, it becomes an official record.  If the guy actually gets arrested, you've just gone from "someone should talk to him about gun safety" to:

he's gotta pay a lawyer (assuming he's got resources),
maybe pay to bond out,
spend work days preparing for and going to hearings,
perhaps have his firearm collection confiscated,
if his job is notified, and if he works at a place requiring a clean arrest background, he could lose his clearance or other credentials which means his job is at risk,
and on and on ...

Look at what happened to Zimmerman.  He was cleared by the local cops, but Obama and Holder pressed for a trial.  Even though he was acquitted in a trial that never should have happened, his life is basically ruined.

My point here is, calling the Cops should never be a routine decision.  Not only are you setting the wheels in motion that may have unintended results, you are taking the police away from other, potentially more urgent, calls.

I take police reports very, very seriously, because the complainant is basically reporting they believe there is a law being broken.  The Cops will investigate, and in this case, they decided to not do much.  What if that had not been the case?

Maybe since you don't know your neighbors at all, other than observing their bad behaviors, you have no concerns about turning them over to the system.  I ask you, what if this had been a close friend you observed.  Would you have called the police?
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An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Drakiir84

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #52 on: August 05, 2015, 01:28:55 PM »
Not going to address the arguments because at the end of the day we each have our own experiences to draw on so I wouldn't presume to tell you whether or not you were right or wrong.  You did what you deemed prudent and I can respect that. 

Personally I wouldn't have called the cops.  I would have asked the guy if he was having trouble with his firearm, told him I was also a gun guy and after starting a dialogue with him would bring up firearm safety and suggested he not point his gun at the road or common areas. 

I think one of the problems our society faces today is a lack of dialogue.  When I was a kid I remembered people talking to each other to resolve issues or concerns, now everything is sorted out through cops and courts.
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"The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized."
-Jeff Cooper

HiCarry

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #53 on: August 05, 2015, 03:29:21 PM »
Quote from: salty0317 on August 03, 2015, 10:58:29 PM

Would anyone here care to guess what happens when live ammunition is incidentally discharged outside the chamber of a firearm?

No need to guess. The matter has been looked into repeatedly. Without the chamber and barrel to contain and channel the projectile, the detonating cartridge will be propelled at a significantly reduced velocity. Said reduced velocity is very unlikely to inflict significant injuries, even to those standing close to the detonating cartridges.

The video of the ammunition in the fire, contrary to your beliefs, is very instructional in this matter. Whether being set off by high heat, or the infinitesimally small chance of a primer strike on an ejected cartridge, the end result is the same: detonation of an unconstrained cartridge. Furthermore, the "brass" rarely fails, and when it does, it splits rather than create "shrapnel."  If, as you suggest the brass would suffer a significant structural failure and create a ton of fragments shot through the air, why was all the brass in the fire demonstration intact?  Your analogy of a "brass cased" firework simulating an unconstrained detonation is fatally flawed. First, gunpowder is not an explosive. It burns rapidly to produce the energy necessary to propel the bullet down the barrel of a gun, but it does not explode. A firecracker is filled with flash powder and does indeed explode.

You can argue the merits of calling the police or not in the situation referenced in this post, but your attempts to somehow make ejecting a live cartridge in your home dangerous because it might detonate on some piece of home furnishings, shows a lack of knowledge on how ammunition behaves both inside and outside a firearm. If there were any concerns that regular home furnishing might cause a detonation of a cartridge IDPA would not set elaborate stages to mimic a home interior during their matches.
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dafrtknocker

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #54 on: August 05, 2015, 04:46:23 PM »
Quote from: HiCarry on August 05, 2015, 03:29:21 PM


The video of the ammunition in the fire, contrary to your beliefs, is very instructional in this matter.
[/quote

Hickok45

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oldfart

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #55 on: August 05, 2015, 07:31:48 PM »
Quote from: Drakiir84 on August 05, 2015, 01:28:55 PM
Not going to address the arguments because at the end of the day we each have our own experiences to draw on so I wouldn't presume to tell you whether or not you were right or wrong.  You did what you deemed prudent and I can respect that. 

Personally I wouldn't have called the cops.  I would have asked the guy if he was having trouble with his firearm, told him I was also a gun guy and after starting a dialogue with him would bring up firearm safety and suggested he not point his gun at the road or common areas. 

I think one of the problems our society faces today is a lack of dialogue.  When I was a kid I remembered people talking to each other to resolve issues or concerns, now everything is sorted out through cops and courts.
...
Oh brother, I dunno about approaching a weird guy with a gun. It only takes a fraction of a second to get from unloaded to loaded.
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What, Me Worry?

Drakiir84

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #56 on: August 05, 2015, 08:38:32 PM »
Quote from: oldfart on August 05, 2015, 07:31:48 PM
...
Oh brother, I dunno about approaching a weird guy with a gun. It only takes a fraction of a second to get from unloaded to loaded.
You know me oldfart, I'll talk to anyone lol. So friendly.... At the very least I can bring up the finer points of cooking steak lol.
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"The rifle is a weapon. Let there be no mistake about that. It is a tool of power, and thus dependent completely upon the moral stature of its user. It is equally useful in securing meat for the table, destroying group enemies on the battlefield, and resisting tyranny. In fact, it is the only means of resisting tyranny, since a citizenry armed with rifles simply cannot be tyrannized."
-Jeff Cooper

mauidog

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #57 on: August 05, 2015, 08:39:30 PM »
Quote from: oldfart on August 05, 2015, 07:31:48 PM
...
Oh brother, I dunno about approaching a weird guy with a gun. It only takes a fraction of a second to get from unloaded to loaded.

Since the characterization of "weird" is the opinion of the OP, that doesn't necessarily make it a fact.  I'm not saying he's purposely making things up, but people do make mistakes.

I'm sure there are plenty of people we all know who on first impression we thought were weird until we got to know them.  For example, some people were raised where yelling is just how people are.  Nothing angry or aggressive is intended.

All you have to do is pay attention to the news when a spree or serial killer is caught.  It's always the quiet ones you have to worry about!!
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An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

oldfart

Re: Idiot with what looked like a firearm, central Oahu.
« Reply #58 on: August 05, 2015, 08:51:10 PM »
Quote from: Drakiir84 on August 05, 2015, 08:38:32 PM
You know me oldfart, I'll talk to anyone lol. So friendly.... At the very least I can bring up the finer points of cooking steak lol.
...
Yeah, you would.
Maybe I would talk to him too...at a distance. To find out what he was trying to do....maybe... depends on what I actually saw.
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What, Me Worry?
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