Since I brought my guns out to Hawaii, I've only had the cheap-o FMJ ammo for my .45, which obviously isn't the best choice for defense ammunition.  I need to get a box of something better, so I started researching on teh intarwebs for what's the best.  In the end I decided that, based largely on the political/social climate in Hawaii, I want to pack whatever HPD uses.  I figure that takes one variable out of the aftermath of a self-defense shooting, since I won't have to justify "why were you using full metal jackets?  Those aren't even legal for hunting!", "Why were you using lead cast?", "Why were you using Super-Premium Flying Death Exploding Sythe ammunition?"  If I have to answer questions about the choice of ammunition, I can just say, "Because that's what the cops use, so it must be good, right?"  Easier for the twelve idiots who will determine my fate to comprehend.

TL;DR: What ammunition does HPD use?

Google-fu is coming up empty, and two different calls to HPD have yielded no answers, although the reactions have been interesting.  I've been referred twice to different phone numbers, and the person answering the phone has acted the way you would expect if you called up the USS Alabama and said, "Hey, I was just wondering, what are the nuclear launch codes that you guys use?"  Criminy, I think it might just be easier to go track down an officer on patrol and say, "Hey, officer, what ammunition are you carrying?"

Is this a nutty question?  I'm starting to wonder if I'm asking an inappropriate question with the reactions I've gotten.  Doesn't seem like a big deal to me, but I'm a little loony, so you never know.

What Magnum told me a few years ago (if you want to believe that) is that HPD uses Speer Gold Dots and SSD uses Federal Bonded. Maybe it wasn't Federal bonded but it was some type of bonded ammo.

What Magnum told me a few years ago (if you want to believe that) is that HPD uses Speer Gold Dots and SSD uses Federal Bonded.

I figured it would be something like that.  I've been reading up on ammunition choice, as well as firearm choice influencing juries.  I'll try to find and post the article that talked about cosmetics of the firearm used influencing the jury.  The gist of it was that juries are much more sympathetic to the guy who uses a gun that looks like a sporting firearm instead of a tricked-out AR, for example.  I figure if I can reduce the odds of going to jail by choosing a shotgun with wood furniture instead of black synthetic, why would I not? 

I been told at security equipment corp that there were the distributors for HPD.  And yes the use speer gold dots

or get your lawyer to find a bunch of gun owners to be on the jury

Why is it so important to know what they use?  There are a number of JHP designs that are effective.  Manufacturers are constantly updating materials and designs to improve performance.  There are times when Departments buy bulk for issue for poitical or other reasons and issue ammo isn't what other Departments would choose to use, sometimes what other individuals whould choose either.  I still have and use 147gr HydraShoks.  It's not what a lot of people would choose but I'm familiar with them and have them on hand.  However when I burn through them I'll be switching over to HST's.

What is available would be the more primary question, then choosing what functions best and reliably in your gun(s).  What you can place your shots best with should be higher prioroty, IMO.  Placing any current production on target is more important then "test performance data" regarding terminal balistics between brand A vs brand B.  Maybe some Departments consider it OPSEC to not tell.  It would prevent someone with nefarious intentions from using the same ammo and confusing the results of an investigation.  I don't know why, specifically, HPD is giving you the reaction you are getting.  I am just curious why some people (on other forums as well) feel the necessity to know.  Are you using the same issue firearms as HPD?  If not, you results may be entirely different anyway.

I don't currently reside in the islands so I don't even know what is available there.  I know I will have to leave wht I have here when I move.  But who knows if what HPD uses is even availble to civilians to begin with?  Maybe they made their purchase primarily on what's not available to the general public to avoid any possible confucion in a shooting investigation.  That would certainly be a plausible answer to why you are getting the "alien from Mars" reaction.  Just a WAG on my part.

The study that I was talking about is covered in this article.

I agree that my lawyer needs to select good jurors, preferably exclusively from this website!  I'm not going to use equipment that will reduce my odds of survival if it comes down to that, but if I can make a choice that affects only cosmetics of the gun, it seems prudent to go with the option that is less likely to be a factor in an investigation/trial.

could you request it through a FOIA letter?

Why is it so important to know what they use?  There are a number of JHP designs that are effective.  Manufacturers are constantly updating materials and designs to improve performance.  There are times when Departments buy bulk for issue for poitical or other reasons and issue ammo isn't what other Departments would choose to use, sometimes what other individuals whould choose either.  I still have and use 147gr HydraShoks.  It's not what a lot of people would choose but I'm familiar with them and have them on hand.  However when I burn through them I'll be switching over to HST's.

What is available would be the more primary question, then choosing what functions best and reliably in your gun(s).  What you can place your shots best with should be higher prioroty, IMO.  Placing any current production on target is more important then "test performance data" regarding terminal balistics between brand A vs brand B.  Maybe some Departments consider it OPSEC to not tell.  It would prevent someone with nefarious intentions from using the same ammo and confusing the results of an investigation.  I don't know why, specifically, HPD is giving you the reaction you are getting.  I am just curious why some people (on other forums as well) feel the necessity to know.  Are you using the same issue firearms as HPD?  If not, you results may be entirely different anyway.

I don't currently reside in the islands so I don't even know what is available there.  I know I will have to leave wht I have here when I move.  But who knows if what HPD uses is even availble to civilians to begin with?  Maybe they made their purchase primarily on what's not available to the general public to avoid any possible confucion in a shooting investigation.  That would certainly be a plausible answer to why you are getting the "alien from Mars" reaction.  Just a WAG on my part.

I agree with what you're saying.  What I'm saying is that assuming that the police use ammo I can get, which functions reliably in my pistol, and has good ballistics, why not use the same stuff?  If it comes down to a difference between two reputable ammo types, with all other factors being equal, I'd like to be able to answer questions about my choice of ammunition by replying that it's what the police use.  Especially if they use a quality JHP, because JHPs are pretty nasty-looking things when they're expanded, and could concievably cause a jury to think you were out for blood.  So when the DA asks, "Why were you using ammunition designed to inflict maximum pain and suffering on the victim?", you say, "Because that's what HPD uses.  I chose my ammunition for the same reason HPD did; I want to safely and quickly stop a mortal threat with minimal risk to myself and bystanders, so I use the same ammunition they use."

^^^If I was an evil Prosecutor I would say, "Mr. Cougar8045 was using law enforcement grade ammunition.  No civilian should really need to use that."

IMHO you pull the wrong guy and no matter what you're using, they will be trying to nail you to the cross.  I hate lawyers.

This same discussion pops up on other forums at almost regular intervals.  Any prosecutor is going to attempt to skew things potentially with amoo choice.  Using the same as a local department can be just as, if not potentially, polarizing as any other statistic.  It is a much better defense to ensure your knowledge of ones local laws and doing ones best that in such an event, you were legally justified in the circumstance.  Relevance in using ANY JHP ammo over ball, let alone what a local department issues, depends mostly on the attourney pressing the case.  The most appropriate defensive position against such a tactic is that JHP ammo is designed to transfer energy into the target and be less suseptable to overpenetrating and potentially injuring collateral property or persons by going completely through and continuing until it has lost its energy - by whatever means.

If the shoot is justified, within the confines of the law based on locality and circumstance, the type of ammo tangent can be defended by the shooter being properly and adequately trained, performing a reasonable amount of practice with said weapon and ammo, and making a responsible choice with regards to ammo for not using ammo designed to penetrate through-and-through - like ball ammo under the terms of the Geneva Conventions, which would potentially lead to slowly bleeding out and drawing out sufferage time.  If one is sufficiently and appropriately in fear of ones life, then it stands that if adequate defense measures were NOT taken, then the vicim would've potentially been the deceased rather than the criminal instigator in the incident.......correct?

.....And whose life is more important in society - a productive member with a job and chosing to defend ones self, or a criminal intent on taking away the posessions or life of that productive member?

^^^If I was an evil Prosecutor I would say, "Mr. Cougar8045 was using law enforcement grade ammunition.  No civilian should really need to use that."

IMHO you pull the wrong guy and no matter what you're using, they will be trying to nail you to the cross.  I hate lawyers.

They will undoubtedly be trying to string you up, especially here in Hawaii, but at least my attorney will have the small advantage posed by me using the same ammunition chosen by our local peace officers in carrying out their duty to protect and serve.     Of course, I wouldn't choose something that was less effective, for example, if HPD used FMJ I'd refuse to use it. 

The prosecutor can use damn near anything in a shooting against you, and he will.  You used FMJ?  You were using the same ammunition that the Marines use on terrorists.  You used JHP?  Check out this pictures of expanded bullets, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.  See how they look like little ninja stars?  You used .38spl?  This maniac was using a gun capable of firing .357 MAGNUM bullets.  God help you if you used an AR or AK!

Some things will be easier for your lawyer to put some lipstick on, however.  That's why I want to use factory ammo vice hand loads, and why I want to use a type commonly selected by law enforcement.  If I had an AR, and it was the closest gun to hand in an emergency, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.  If it's hard to justify to a jury, tough shit, I guess.  But if there was an AR right next to a wood-stock Ruger Mini-14, I'd take the Mini-14, because it's less threatening to a DA and a jury.

This same discussion pops up on other forums at almost regular intervals.  Any prosecutor is going to attempt to skew things potentially with amoo choice.  Using the same as a local department can be just as, if not potentially, polarizing as any other statistic.  It is a much better defense to ensure your knowledge of ones local laws and doing ones best that in such an event, you were legally justified in the circumstance.  Relevance in using ANY JHP ammo over ball, let alone what a local department issues, depends mostly on the attourney pressing the case.  The most appropriate defensive position against such a tactic is that JHP ammo is designed to transfer energy into the target and be less suseptable to overpenetrating and potentially injuring collateral property or persons by going completely through and continuing until it has lost its energy - by whatever means.

If the shoot is justified, within the confines of the law based on locality and circumstance, the type of ammo tangent can be defended by the shooter being properly and adequately trained, performing a reasonable amount of practice with said weapon and ammo, and making a responsible choice with regards to ammo for not using ammo designed to penetrate through-and-through - like ball ammo under the terms of the Geneva Conventions, which would potentially lead to slowly bleeding out and drawing out sufferage time.  If one is sufficiently and appropriately in fear of ones life, then it stands that if adequate defense measures were NOT taken, then the vicim would've potentially been the deceased rather than the criminal instigator in the incident.......correct?

.....And whose life is more important in society - a productive member with a job and chosing to defend ones self, or a criminal intent on taking away the posessions or life of that productive member?

You're quite right, but I think that if given the choice between two bonded JHPs that perform equally well in your pistol, one from a small shop in Unabomberville, Montana, and featuring a picture of Insanity Wolf on the box; and another from a reputable, national supplier of law-enforcment ammunition, I'll take the latter. 

I've now given up on finding out what HPD uses.  I think everyone down there thinks I'm getting ready to sue them or make a sales pitch, I've followed the rabbit hole to four different people at four different phone numbers; the hell with it.  I guess I'll just go with what's available from Speer, Winchester, or Remington.

Quote from: GZire on October 11, 2011, 11:36:56 AM

^^^If I was an evil Prosecutor I would say, "Mr. Cougar8045 was using law enforcement grade ammunition.  No civilian should really need to use that."

IMHO you pull the wrong guy and no matter what you're using, they will be trying to nail you to the cross.  I hate lawyers.

They will undoubtedly be trying to string you up, especially here in Hawaii, but at least my attorney will have the small advantage posed by me using the same ammunition chosen by our local peace officers in carrying out their duty to protect and serve.     Of course, I wouldn't choose something that was less effective, for example, if HPD used FMJ I'd refuse to use it. 

The prosecutor can use damn near anything in a shooting against you, and he will.  You used FMJ?  You were using the same ammunition that the Marines use on terrorists.  You used JHP?  Check out this pictures of expanded bullets, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.  See how they look like little ninja stars?  You used .38spl?  This maniac was using a gun capable of firing .357 MAGNUM bullets.  God help you if you used an AR or AK!

Some things will be easier for your lawyer to put some lipstick on, however.  That's why I want to use factory ammo vice hand loads, and why I want to use a type commonly selected by law enforcement.  If I had an AR, and it was the closest gun to hand in an emergency, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.  If it's hard to justify to a jury, tough shit, I guess.  But if there was an AR right next to a wood-stock Ruger Mini-14, I'd take the Mini-14, because it's less threatening to a DA and a jury.

Is it wrong for me to laugh quietly when looking at your smilie?

Quote from: Cougar8045 on October 11, 2011, 11:50:43 AM

Quote from: GZire on October 11, 2011, 11:36:56 AM

^^^If I was an evil Prosecutor I would say, "Mr. Cougar8045 was using law enforcement grade ammunition.  No civilian should really need to use that."

IMHO you pull the wrong guy and no matter what you're using, they will be trying to nail you to the cross.  I hate lawyers.

They will undoubtedly be trying to string you up, especially here in Hawaii, but at least my attorney will have the small advantage posed by me using the same ammunition chosen by our local peace officers in carrying out their duty to protect and serve.     Of course, I wouldn't choose something that was less effective, for example, if HPD used FMJ I'd refuse to use it. 

The prosecutor can use damn near anything in a shooting against you, and he will.  You used FMJ?  You were using the same ammunition that the Marines use on terrorists.  You used JHP?  Check out this pictures of expanded bullets, ladies and gentlemen of the jury.  See how they look like little ninja stars?  You used .38spl?  This maniac was using a gun capable of firing .357 MAGNUM bullets.  God help you if you used an AR or AK!

Some things will be easier for your lawyer to put some lipstick on, however.  That's why I want to use factory ammo vice hand loads, and why I want to use a type commonly selected by law enforcement.  If I had an AR, and it was the closest gun to hand in an emergency, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.  If it's hard to justify to a jury, tough shit, I guess.  But if there was an AR right next to a wood-stock Ruger Mini-14, I'd take the Mini-14, because it's less threatening to a DA and a jury.

Is it wrong for me to laugh quietly when looking at your smilie?

Nope, be my guest!  I put that in there because if I use the same stuff as HPD, it would make jurors have to wrap their minds around the fact that the police they trust to protect them from criminals use bullets that the prosecution is trying to label as [insert nasty bullet name].

How about Hornady Personal Defense? Or any other ammo with "Defense" in the name.
(IMHO Honady Personal Defense is some great ammo)

"Sir, why where you using that type of ammo?"

"Why, because I wanted something for personal defense."

(oops! Mispost, it's Critical Defense, not personal defense! Duh.! Haha. )

How about Hornady Personal Defense? Or any other ammo with "Defense" in the name.
(IMHO Honady Personal Defense is some great ammo)

"Sir, why where you using that type of ammo?"

"Why, because I wanted something for personal defense."

That's a good idea, too.  Having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and also having done a bit of internet research, I'm something of an  expert, and the main thing seems to be that you dont want to shoot someone with your handloads.  It could make forensic evidence which proves your justification difficult to prove, plus it gives the DA leverage to paint a picture of you in your garage, making homemade ammo because the store bought stuff wasn't lethal enough for you.

Quote from: Heavies on October 11, 2011, 02:59:03 PM

How about Hornady Personal Defense? Or any other ammo with "Defense" in the name.
(IMHO Honady Personal Defense is some great ammo)

"Sir, why where you using that type of ammo?"

"Why, because I wanted something for personal defense."

That's a good idea, too.  Having stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, and also having done a bit of internet research, I'm something of an  expert, and the main thing seems to be that you dont want to shoot someone with your handloads.  It could make forensic evidence which proves your justification difficult to prove, plus it gives the DA leverage to paint a picture of you in your garage, making homemade ammo because the store bought stuff wasn't lethal enough for you.

I have heard this thought process, but I have yet to find it proven anywhere.  At the end of the day, I think I would rather take my chances in court instead of taking a dirt nap.  So if you buy custom loads from an manufacturer with an FFL, are you off the hook?