I may have missed it in 17 pages of posts but what law obligates any health care provider to provide any information regarding a patient, let alone, an opinion concerning the qualifications of an individual with respect to possessing a firearm?

HRS 134-2 (c)

I may have missed it in 17 pages of posts but what law obligates any health care provider to provide any information regarding a patient, let alone, an opinion concerning the qualifications of an individual with respect to possessing a firearm?

In my opinion, as it pertains to the medical clearance letter I believe what is being requested is a review of Electronic Medical Records (EMR) and a statement of whether or patient "had any prior or current history of mental illness, drug abuse or alcohol abuse." and not an opinion. The only part that I can see that would be an opinion would be "is fully capable of making his own medical decisions".  However, that can be argued since mental competency needs to be disproved by the courts and then having someone assigned as a Guardian and/or granted Power of Attorney due to mental incompetency...which should show up in the medical records and if not, then the patient is capable of making his/her own medical decisions.  Just to be safe, perhaps an attorney specializing in Family Law could confirm since they deal with mental competency issues.  Medical practitioners walk a fine line and need to be careful on this sensitive subject of being mentally incompetent to avoid any potential litigation from a patient.   Again, just my opinion.

I may have missed it in 17 pages of posts but what law obligates any health care provider to provide any information regarding a patient, let alone, an opinion concerning the qualifications of an individual with respect to possessing a firearm?

[§134-3.5]  Disclosure for firearm permit and registration purposes.  A health care provider or public health authority shall disclose health information, including protected health care information, relating to an individual's mental health history, to the appropriate county chief of police in response to a request for the information from the chief of police; provided that:
     (1)  The information shall be used only for the purpose of evaluating the individual's fitness to acquire or own a firearm; and

     (2)  The individual has signed a waiver permitting release of the health information for that purpose. [L 2001, c 252, §1]

134-2(c) requires the applicant to sign the waiver.

In my opinion, as it pertains to the medical clearance letter I believe what is being requested is a review of Electronic Medical Records (EMR) and a statement of whether or patient "had any prior or current history of mental illness, drug abuse or alcohol abuse." and not an opinion. The only part that I can see that would be an opinion would be "is fully capable of making his own medical decisions".  However, that can be argued since mental competency needs to be disproved by the courts and then having someone assigned as a Guardian and/or granted Power of Attorney due to mental incompetency...which should show up in the medical records and if not, then the patient is capable of making his/her own medical decisions.  Just to be safe, perhaps an attorney specializing in Family Law could confirm since they deal with mental competency issues.  Medical practitioners walk a fine line and need to be careful on this sensitive subject of being mentally incompetent to avoid any potential litigation from a patient.   Again, just my opinion.

As far as I can see, the law does not require "medical clearance letter."  The law requires a health care provider to disclose, i.e. make known or reveal, information to HPD.  I'm not a lawyer, but nothing I see in the HRS requires the provider to make a determination or render an opinion on the applicant's fitness to possess firearms.  They have to make information available, but it's up to HPD to determine whether or not you're disqualified.

Does anyone know who at HPD reviews the records, what training they get, and what standards they use to decide qualification?

does any other state require clearance from their doctor?

does any other state require clearance from their doctor?

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think this is an important point.  The law DOES NOT require "clearance from your doctor."  It requires your doctor to disclose mental health info to HPD.  HPD makes the qualified/disqualified decision... based on what standard?

Does anyone know who at HPD reviews the records, what training they get, and what standards they use to decide qualification?

They push button on a computer, and it does it for them.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I think this is an important point.  The law DOES NOT require "clearance from your doctor."  It requires your doctor to disclose mental health info to HPD.  HPD makes the qualified/disqualified decision... based on what standard?

let me reword my question:
does any other state require anything from your doctor in order to acquire a firearm?

or do they just do the FBI background check.
i'm asking bc i've never bought a firearm outside of hawaii.

let me reword my question:
does any other state require anything from your doctor in order to acquire a firearm?

or do they just do the FBI background check.
i'm asking bc i've never bought a firearm outside of hawaii.

It is the GUN SHOP that does the background check; usually takes 5-10 minutes on an average day. The Gun shop calls NICS, NICS tells them if you are disqualified or not. If you aren't disqualified, you get your gun. If you are disqualified, you don't get your gun and will eventually be contacted by the ATF. Pistols are usually instantaneous if you are a resident in the state you are purchasing, and there is usually a 3-5 day waiting period if you are an out of state resident that is allowed to purchase (i.e. military).

It is the GUN SHOP that does the background check; usually takes 5-10 minutes on an average day. The Gun shop calls NICS, NICS tells them if you are disqualified or not. If you aren't disqualified, you get your gun. If you are disqualified, you don't get your gun and will eventually be contacted by the ATF. Pistols are usually instantaneous if you are a resident in the state you are purchasing, and there is usually a 3-5 day waiting period if you are an out of state resident that is allowed to purchase (i.e. military).

In many states that ACTUALLY issue concealed carry permits, any waiting period, including for new handguns, is waived.

Residents without CCW permits may have to wait before picking the gun up, but the NICS check will have already been done and the answer reported to the seller.

Here's the messed up part: after the AZ shooting that wounded Gabby Giffords, Congressional testimony stated the status of mandatory reporting of psychological and mental illnesses to the FBI for NICS inclusion was extremely backlogged. 

Based on this Aug 2014 report, 30 states have laws mandating reporting of mental health information into the NICS database.  States are not required under federal law to submit mental health records to NICS. There are no consequences if states choose not to send records, resulting in major information gaps.

Only about 30 percent of the estimated 4.4 million mental health records in the United States over the past two decades can be found in NICS, according to research compiled in 2012.

Out of all gun purchases blocked by the FBI over the past 16 years, fewer than 2 percent were because of mental health status. That amounts to 14,613 blocked sales since 1998.

Every one of the country’s mass shooters since January 2009 could have slipped through NICS, according to a July 2014 study by the gun control organization Everytown for Gun Safety.

In 12 out of the 110 incidents identified by Everytown, the shooters had demonstrated some evidence of a mental illness, but there was no evidence that any of them had been mentally adjudicated or involuntarily committed for treatment.

Research over the past decade shows that it’s nearly impossible to predict which individuals will commit gun violence, let alone find them through NICS.


Basically, we are trying to find a small percentage of people who are mentally ill by stopping anyone who has a "flag" in their medical record which might indicate some type of emotional or mental issue.

“The ability of mental health professionals to pick out who’s going to be violent, it’s not much better than a coin toss,”
said Jeffrey Swanson, a medical sociologist from Duke University who studies the intersection of guns and mental illness.
“To focus only on mental health is misguided.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/lack-of-data-makes-it-hard-for-background-checks-system-to-work-properly/2014/08/28/d166c1b4-2ed8-11e4-be9e-60cc44c01e7f_story.html

I heard HPD stopped that request.... Back to normal per OGC post

Here's the messed up part: after the AZ shooting that wounded Gabby Giffords, Congressional testimony stated the status of mandatory reporting of psychological and mental illnesses to the FBI for NICS inclusion was extremely backlogged. 

Based on this Aug 2014 report, 30 states have laws mandating reporting of mental health information into the NICS database.  States are not required under federal law to submit mental health records to NICS. There are no consequences if states choose not to send records, resulting in major information gaps.

Only about 30 percent of the estimated 4.4 million mental health records in the United States over the past two decades can be found in NICS, according to research compiled in 2012.

Out of all gun purchases blocked by the FBI over the past 16 years, fewer than 2 percent were because of mental health status. That amounts to 14,613 blocked sales since 1998.

Every one of the country’s mass shooters since January 2009 could have slipped through NICS, according to a July 2014 study by the gun control organization Everytown for Gun Safety.

In 12 out of the 110 incidents identified by Everytown, the shooters had demonstrated some evidence of a mental illness, but there was no evidence that any of them had been mentally adjudicated or involuntarily committed for treatment.

Research over the past decade shows that it’s nearly impossible to predict which individuals will commit gun violence, let alone find them through NICS.

Basically, we are trying to find a small percentage of people who are mentally ill by stopping anyone who has a "flag" in their medical record which might indicate some type of emotional or mental issue.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/lack-of-data-makes-it-hard-for-background-checks-system-to-work-properly/2014/08/28/d166c1b4-2ed8-11e4-be9e-60cc44c01e7f_story.html

Small percentage ? 12 out of 110 is over 10%.
Sounds like you're saying the letter should be required for everyone.
That NICS checks are insufficient ( as every one of the country's mass shooters since 2009 could have slipped through NICS and few states were reporting mental health records anyway )

I heard HPD stopped that request.... Back to normal per OGC post

I'm glad it's not any longer.

Sounds like you're saying the letter should be required.

No, what I'm saying is, there is no way to effectively implement a requirement to evaluate existing medical records for determining the risk of allowing an individual to own a firearm.  Sure, you might find a few who have real problems, but there is no way to know if you are actually preventing anything at all from happening.  In fact, few criminals with mental illness commit crimes due to the symptoms of the illness itself.  We hear of Son of Sam taking orders from the neighbor's dog, and we think that's how all crazy people think.  Not true.

Of the known mentally ill patients of the country, what percentage actually hurts others based on the illness? 

In a study of crimes committed by people with serious mental disorders, only 7.5 percent were directly related to symptoms
of mental illness, according to new research published by the American Psychological Association.   

Researchers analyzed 429 crimes committed by 143 offenders with three major types of mental illness and found that 3
percent of their crimes were directly related to symptoms of major depression, 4 percent to symptoms of schizophrenia
disorders and 10 percent to symptoms of bipolar disorder.

“When we hear about crimes committed by people with mental illness, they tend to be big headline-making crimes so
they get stuck in people’s heads,” said lead researcher Jillian Peterson, PhD. “The vast majority of people with mental
illness are not violent, not criminal and not dangerous.”

So, the percentage of gun buyers who might have mental illness is small.  Of that, the number who commit crimes due to their illness is small. 

Trying to use any records-keeping system, including a "letter" saying you are not crazy, is not going to prevent anything. 

As we all know, if someone is thinking of ever buying a gun, knowing that their seeking treatment could deny them, they may opt to avoid treatment.  Therefore, no record exists even though the person may have been helped had he sought treatment.

Also, people with mental illness do not always go through the background check process.  They can do like Sandy Hook's killer and steal from a family member, or they can do like the San Bernardino killers who got their rifles second hand from a friend.  Another study shows the majority of career criminals get their guns from friends and known acquaintances, just like San Bernardino.  If someone needs a gun, they will find a way without going through the background check. 

As with all gun control laws, those most affected by them are the law abiding.  Those who are breaking laws like murder could not care less about gun laws.  Systems like this that attempt to identify people with certain "flags" in their records would be fine if the denial for gun purchasing was simply on hold until a real clearance evaluation is performed, not just a records check.  Of course, that would hinge on the honesty of the patient before an accurate determination is possible.

If we want to get serious about keeping guns away from the mentally ill, then full mental health check-ups need to be performed throughout the patient's life, so there is a baseline with which to compare subsequent evaluations.  Mental health issues are best spotted based on behavioral changes such as increased alcohol use, illegal drug use, increased or escalated domestic arguments, drop in school grades or job performance, petty criminal charges like shoplifting, ... anything that demonstrates a change in attitude or caring what happens to them.

Good luck getting anyone to agree to pay for this kind of ongoing evaluation process!

A bad solution cannot be made better by adding more layers of documentation or reviews of existing records.  A letter might give the appearance you've been evaluated properly, but it's a lie if the letter writer has only your records to go on.

Nice.

Much better explanation. 

No anti-2As can use that one while we can.

Small percentage ? 12 out of 110 is over 10%.
Sounds like you're saying the letter should be required for everyone.
That NICS checks are insufficient ( as every one of the country's mass shooters since 2009 could have slipped through NICS and few states were reporting mental health records anyway )

I'm glad it's not any longer.

I know you are mathematically challenged, since you still think a Vienna Sausage is 6 inches long ...

Nobody compared the ratio of 12 of 110 except you.  The numbers show that of 110 shootings, only 12 had exhibited any signs of mental illness prior, and NONE (zero, zilch, nada) had been diagnosed or treated for any mental illness.  This illustrates (1) 12 people who probably should have seen a doctor for mental health issues did not, (2)  had they been treated and diagnosed, they MAY have subsequently been denied a gun purchase, (3) the system only knows what people tell it -- doctors, the justice system, family members, employers -- and (4) you need to learn to read for comprehension before trying to argue acts with me.

They push button on a computer, and it does it for them.

Can you fill that in for me a little bit? So, request goes to health care provider to disclose information.  HCP sends info to HPD (either electronic or hard copy).  HPD pushes what button on what computer program to get the computer to tell them if you're qualified or not?  What standard does the computer use?  Does it just search for mental health-related medical codes?  What if they get hard copy records?

Confirmed. HPD went back to old way. they even kept the permits I was supposed to get on12/17/15 which they denied because they didn't approve of my $130 DR. note. They handed me both the pistol and rifle permit. Unfortunately OGC is closed until Jan 04, 2016. I am sending them email asking them to have someone release it to me before this permit expires and I have to start all over again. Will post at there address here on forum, hope someone is monitoring. If anyone knows the owner personally I would appreciate  you asking on my behalf. Fought kaiser, HPD. Now I have to fight time and OGC. Just think $1000.00 pistol cost me $1400.00. And it only took a month and Four separate trips to HPD and I still can't get my pistol.

Unfortunately OGC is closed until Jan 04, 2016. I am sending them email asking them to have someone release it to me before this permit expires and I have to start all over again. Will post at there address here on forum, hope someone is monitoring. If anyone knows the owner personally I would appreciate  you asking on my behalf. Fought kaiser, HPD. Now I have to fight time and OGC.

Carter is really good about responding to emails.

Confirmed. HPD went back to old way. they even kept the permits I was supposed to get on12/17/15 which they denied because they didn't approve of my $130 DR. note. They handed me both the pistol and rifle permit. Unfortunately OGC is closed until Jan 04, 2016. I am sending them email asking them to have someone release it to me before this permit expires and I have to start all over again. Will post at there address here on forum, hope someone is monitoring. If anyone knows the owner personally I would appreciate  you asking on my behalf. Fought kaiser, HPD. Now I have to fight time and OGC. Just think $1000.00 pistol cost me $1400.00. And it only took a month and Four separate trips to HPD and I still can't get my pistol.

If you register a day or two late, HPD usually doesn't say anything.  If they do, tell them it's their fault for denying you the first time (assuming OGC was not on vacation yet).   

I've registered a few days late because I couldn't get there before 3:00 and the doors were already locked.  It was Friday, so I just went Monday.

Once you have the permit and the firearm, you've covered the major requirements for acquisition.   So, don't sweat the registration.  Before the deadline is always better, but a little late won't be a problem.

YMMV.