New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD (Read 228682 times)

Colt808

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2015, 11:16:23 PM »
The problem with HPD Firearms is that they just make shit up as they go along.

One day you need the letter, next day you don't. Then 2 weeks from then, you will have to fill out 10 more forms and jump through 25 other different hoops.

There is no organization or consistency with their own policies, and it's obvious they have some ulterior motive with what they are doing.

The real question is what are we going to do about it?
I've been doing this for a really long time and have yet to experience the "problem" of something made up or an "ulterior motive". Maybe I'm just lucky.

And what are "we" going to do about it? Well, IF I were a Kaiser/Straub client and having a problem with getting a permit...I'd probably be documenting the issue and taking it HERE, instead of ranting or "stirring the pot".  And none of this is saying I'm OK with your perceived problems, just that until it applies to me (or everyone), I'm not part of the collective to be represented in the action required and there is nothing I can do.
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. ~Thomas Paine


And I still see stupid people.

Q

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #121 on: November 25, 2015, 11:43:00 PM »
I've been doing this for a really long time and have yet to experience the "problem" of something made up or an "ulterior motive". Maybe I'm just lucky.

Explain to me, then, how I got instructions on how to write the letter, verbatim, from HPD Firearms administration, then when I come in to file my paperwork, get presented with a template of how the letter should be written, all within the span of a week? I might also add that my letter included everything needed in the template with regards to wording and compliance with 134-7, yet wasn't acceptable because it wasn't worded EXACTLY like their template.

Then explain why something that was only applicable to people needing verification from their doctor, now being applied to all applicants.

You can then finish up as to why, if true, people will need to be fingerprinted every time they go to the Firearms Section. Last I checked, if you are the same person that went through the initial process, it's very unlikely your fingerprints changed.


No ulterior motive vs making it harder for people to purchase firearms....which one makes more sense with everything happening?

causa mortis

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #122 on: November 26, 2015, 12:03:10 AM »
So, another member PM'd me the name of a doctor that will write this letter for me. I'm planning to see him on Friday. My only concern is if he fills it out the way HPD is asking it to be filled, then isn't the wording "no longer affected..." imply that I did, indeed, have some mental or substance abuse issues in the past? (I've never been crazy nor a druggie.) Isn't it possible that this letter could come back to haunt me later as some type of retroactive proof I'm unstable, and then be used as way to screw me over even more?

Dolomite

New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #123 on: November 26, 2015, 12:09:47 AM »
So what if you say your at queens? Can they verify any info?

eyeeatingfish

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #124 on: November 26, 2015, 01:42:42 AM »
Why would you automatically assume that they said something i disagreed with?

We have another winner here.

Because a logical guess would be that they would have no reason to delete something they agreed with.

eyeeatingfish

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #125 on: November 26, 2015, 01:45:22 AM »
So, another member PM'd me the name of a doctor that will write this letter for me. I'm planning to see him on Friday. My only concern is if he fills it out the way HPD is asking it to be filled, then isn't the wording "no longer affected..." imply that I did, indeed, have some mental or substance abuse issues in the past? (I've never been crazy nor a druggie.) Isn't it possible that this letter could come back to haunt me later as some type of retroactive proof I'm unstable, and then be used as way to screw me over even more?

I kind of doubt it. Who else is going to have access to the letter other than your doctor and the police department? And if the police department did find an issue later and used the "no longer affected" wording against you they would still have to prove you were affected in the first place which they would fail to if there are no records.

I agree the wording is bad but I don't think there would be any reprocussions.

eyeeatingfish

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #126 on: November 26, 2015, 01:48:29 AM »
This is most likely the result of Kaiser taking it in the shorts for certifying Uesugi years ago.

Yeah, it is from Kaiser, not some new policy by HPD.

Q

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #127 on: November 26, 2015, 02:46:12 AM »
So, another member PM'd me the name of a doctor that will write this letter for me. I'm planning to see him on Friday. My only concern is if he fills it out the way HPD is asking it to be filled, then isn't the wording "no longer affected..." imply that I did, indeed, have some mental or substance abuse issues in the past? (I've never been crazy nor a druggie.) Isn't it possible that this letter could come back to haunt me later as some type of retroactive proof I'm unstable, and then be used as way to screw me over even more?

Have the doctor write it as "has never been affected..."

If they deny it, ask to speak directly to Firearms section administration (the ladies).

If Admin gives you problems, ask to speak directly to the supervising lieutenant.

If lieutenant gives you problems, contact Mr. Holcomb.


There is no reason to falsely proclaim yourself to have received treatment when you never did.

Colt808

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #128 on: November 26, 2015, 06:27:34 AM »
Explain to me, then, how I got instructions on how to write the letter, verbatim, from HPD Firearms administration, then when I come in to file my paperwork, get presented with a template of how the letter should be written, all within the span of a week? I might also add that my letter included everything needed in the template with regards to wording and compliance with 134-7, yet wasn't acceptable because it wasn't worded EXACTLY like their template.
Read the OP again:
"Starting today at HPD if you are going to do the paper work to get a permit to aquire (Rifle or Handgun), Kaiser and Straub Hospital changed their procedure."

Do you have Kaiser or Straub? If you do, then refer to what the bold and underlined part. It's not an HPD policy. Still need an explanation? Get a copy of what your medical provider supplied HPD. Your answer will more than likely be found there.

Quote
Then explain why something that was only applicable to people needing verification from their doctor, now being applied to all applicants.

You can then finish up as to why, if true, people will need to be fingerprinted every time they go to the Firearms Section. Last I checked, if you are the same person that went through the initial process, it's very unlikely your fingerprints changed.
Do you know any of that for a fact? Are non-Kaiser/Straub clients being denied for a missing medical clearance letter? Or are you just assuming its for everyone?

As far as finger prints go, you're getting riled up over a heresay comment. The last time I was fingerprinted was in 1994..."back in the day" getting printed and photographed every time was a just part of the background check. So on that part, things have actually been a lot easier. But even if that has changed and its required every time? Well, it wasn't a problem then and still wouldn't be now. If they want to expend the effort to take prints every time, that's on them. I'm already there to do what I need to do. That's not apathy or blind conformity...I believe a problem is only a problem if you make it so.

All that aside, if you really need me to explain to you why you're having problems, then paperwork is the least of your worries. From your posts (not just this thread), it's pretty clear you hate HPD and seemingly Hawaii all together. That's a personal issue. Injecting that or making a big deal out of something that's unfounded is really not helpful in terms of this topic. People with Kaiser/Straub as stated in the OP have an actionable issue. Griping about having to do fingerprinting or claiming a letter is required for everyone (or whatever else conspiracy BS) diminishes what people need to pay attention to. SEVEN pages of comments and only 3 (according to HiCarry) have contacted Holcomb. Now that's something that should require explaining.

Quote
No ulterior motive vs making it harder for people to purchase firearms....which one makes more sense with everything happening?
You decide which makes more sense. Is this all of this a result of Kaiser/Straub putting out a poorly worded letter/dumping medical files or because someone in Firearms Division got a wild hair (to make things harder)? Don't bother answering if you can not do it rationally or want to base a response on unfounded claims.
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it. ~Thomas Paine


And I still see stupid people.

scorpio ps

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #129 on: November 26, 2015, 08:26:28 AM »
Lets get the facts here as there are many opinions, which are always welcome.  I have now made three trips to HPD this week and kept asking the same questions. Since i spoke with different officers every time , the answers were slightly different to much different as you can see on this forum. One answer that was universal. " If you are a Kaiser or Straub member, Your doctors letter has to be verbatim as the one that was handed to you. If not then a simple "no has not had, does not have....  or yes has had issues or has issues. The third option left is the doctor does not answer in that case it's considered "no has not had issues and a permit is awarded. As for the entire or even part of the medical record being transmitted to HPD, please read the entire HRS 134-2 i have enclosed the pertinent parts. The following text has been copied and pasted so it's the real deal. Lets look and stick to the facts.

(b)  The permit application form shall include the applicant's name, address, sex, height, weight, date of birth, place of birth, country of citizenship, social security number, alien or admission number, and information regarding the applicant's mental health history and shall require the fingerprinting and photographing of the applicant by the police department of the county of registration; provided that where fingerprints and photograph are already on file with the department, these may be waived.

Please look at the last sentence. Finger prints may be waived if already on file.  "these may be waived" so don't get bent out of shape if they finger print you again. They have the right to by law.
 
(c)  An applicant for a permit shall sign a waiver at the time of application, allowing the chief of police of the county issuing the permit access to any records that have a bearing on the mental health of the applicant.  The permit application form and the waiver form shall be prescribed by the attorney general and shall be uniform throughout the State.   

That is why you signed the release, now its up to HPD to get the information they need. What did they ask for " access to any records that have a bearing on the mental health of the applicant". The officers don't want to be looking in your whole medical record, thats what I was told. But wait a minute, you asked for any medical records. Now that you got them,  you don't know or want to do anything with them.

  (e)  The permit application form shall be signed by the applicant and by the issuing authority.  One copy of the permit shall be retained by the issuing authority as a permanent official record.  Except for sales to dealers licensed under section 134-31, or dealers licensed by the United States Department of Justice, or law enforcement officers, or where a license is granted under section 134-9, or where any firearm is registered pursuant to section 134-3(a), no permit shall be issued to an applicant earlier than fourteen calendar days after the date of the application; provided that a permit shall be issued or the application denied before the twentieth day from the date of application.

They have a minimum of 14 days and maximum of 20 days, that's 10 -15 working days to issue you a permit, unless they find evidence that prevent you by law from owning. Not getting a responce from your doctors office or getting the entire medical record  does not constitute or prevent you from getting a permit. Other factors do.

This folks is the law. Everything else is conjecture.

Dumbgun

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #130 on: November 26, 2015, 11:53:37 AM »
To:
***** * *******
From:
JONATHAN H SHUN MD, MD
Received:
11/25/2015  8:04 PM HST
Hello Mr. *******,

Kaiser provided me a printout of the firearms policy I must follow. I believe one of the Medical Assistant plans to provide you a copy as well.
I believe you may write to 'Member Services' regarding your request to appeal Kaiser's (firearms) policy. However, as this is the stance of the Kaiser organization, I suspect that the policy cannot be reversed.


Sincerely,

Jonathan Shun MD

stangzilla

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #131 on: November 26, 2015, 11:59:23 AM »
Since that is kaiser 's policy
And they will not provide a service
They should pay for the visit to the outside doctor.

Gordyf

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #132 on: November 26, 2015, 02:08:03 PM »
Since that is kaiser 's policy
And they will not provide a service
They should pay for the visit to the outside doctor.

I may be missing something, but it sounds to me like HPD has not been able to get what they want/need from Kaiser and Straub because of "policy", so they put the onus on us, the paying customer, to squeeze.
Now I don't agree with HPD on much with regard to firearms laws, but they did not make them, only have to follow them. If they are required by law to get this info from your medics and if the medics won't pony up what can they do?
Seems like the issue is with our providers, and only we can force that issue. Vote with our feet and find another provider or get them to change "policy" Alternatively change the law so the info is not required. Throw all the bums out and start fresh. (fat chance). My guess is that working with Kaiser/Straub is the answer, through negotiation, or litigation. We need more than 3 folks to call Wolfwood, and All Kaiser customers need to call customer service. Burn up the switch boards.

This will work itself out, but will take unity on our part, and sticking to the facts only, not outrage an innuendo.
There are too many people involved for it not to settle. Kaiser Medical represents almost half of the population, thus probably half of the firearm community.
What we have here is  a Kaiser issue, not an HPD thing. HPD is however taking the opportunity to thumb their noses at us. Nanny Nanny Boobers! which only stirs the pot. Got us all riled up and not moving rationally ahead laughing all the way.
Divide and conquer... Works every time.
Thoughts? :grrr:
Gordy

Afterthought, Kaiser used to have a policy... if a form needed to be filled out , it cost $75. The cost of a normal industrial/DOT physical.
Aloha
Gordy

mauidog

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #133 on: November 26, 2015, 02:20:03 PM »
I may be missing something, but it sounds to me like HPD has not been able to get what they want/need from Kaiser and Straub because of "policy", so they put the onus on us, the paying customer, to squeeze.
Now I don't agree with HPD on much with regard to firearms laws, but they did not make them, only have to follow them. If they are required by law to get this info from your medics and if the medics won't pony up what can they do?
Seems like the issue is with our providers, and only we can force that issue. Vote with our feet and find another provider or get them to change "policy" Alternatively change the law so the info is not required. Throw all the bums out and start fresh. (fat chance). My guess is that working with Kaiser/Straub is the answer, through negotiation, or litigation. We need more than 3 folks to call Wolfwood, and All Kaiser customers need to call customer service. Burn up the switch boards.

This will work itself out, but will take unity on our part, and sticking to the facts only, not outrage an innuendo.
There are too many people involved for it not to settle. Kaiser Medical represents almost half of the population, thus probably half of the firearm community.
What we have here is  a Kaiser issue, not an HPD thing. HPD is however taking the opportunity to thumb their noses at us. Nanny Nanny Boobers! which only stirs the pot. Got us all riled up and not moving rationally ahead laughing all the way.
Divide and conquer... Works every time.
Thoughts? :grrr:
Gordy

Afterthought, Kaiser used to have a policy... if a form needed to be filled out , it cost $75. The cost of a normal industrial/DOT physical.

The problem as I see it is, HPD is turning this into a paper chase versus a background check.  To require a letter from your current PCP is reasonable.  But, to then say, if your PCP doesn't want to do the letter you should go to an outsider to get the letter makes no sense.  A doctor I have never met, been treated by, or diagnosed by is going to write me a letter?  What does that accomplish other than check a box off for HPD's background check? 

It's stupid and a waste of time and money.  They might as well not require any medical info from Kaiser or Straub patients.  No difference between NO REPLY and QUALIFIED BY OUTSIDE DOCTOR LETTER, IMHO.
An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it.   -- Jeff Cooper

Gordyf

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #134 on: November 26, 2015, 02:56:48 PM »
The problem as I see it is, HPD is turning this into a paper chase versus a background check. 



It has always been a paper chase. They are toying with us. We want something and they have control. The playground bully.
You know all the papers you fill out every time you go in? I will not buy that in this day and age, they can't just ask for you DOB, Social and name, ask you if anything has changed, and push Enter.
Should take a couple of minutes and you're out the door. How long did the NICS check take last time you bought a gun? No more than 5 minutes I suspect
This latest is just more of the same. We need to present a united front.
They have divided and we have been conquered. We need to be smarter than them.

That having been said, it will be interesting when somebody goes in to register a C&R they have just brought in, or a firearm purchased in another jurisdiction.
He or she will not be applying for a permit, pistol or long gun, but only asking to register a legally acquired piece brought in from out of State.
The PTA is not required. :grrr: some more.

Gordy
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 03:13:56 PM by Gordyf »
Aloha
Gordy

ren

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #135 on: November 26, 2015, 03:26:26 PM »
WIth our current state of tech of relational databases, data warehouses; Who uses carbon copy paper and typewriters?
Deeds Not Words

Pit808

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #136 on: November 26, 2015, 03:34:16 PM »
Has anyone had a problem getting a letter from a Straub, Pali Momi, or Kapiolani doc?  Or does anyone know what their policy is regarding a letter? 
chitty chitty bang bang.......

Q

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #137 on: November 26, 2015, 05:12:43 PM »
Read the OP again:
"Starting today at HPD if you are going to do the paper work to get a permit to aquire (Rifle or Handgun), Kaiser and Straub Hospital changed their procedure."

Do you have Kaiser or Straub? If you do, then refer to what the bold and underlined part. It's not an HPD policy. Still need an explanation? Get a copy of what your medical provider supplied HPD. Your answer will more than likely be found there.
Do you know any of that for a fact? Are non-Kaiser/Straub clients being denied for a missing medical clearance letter? Or are you just assuming its for everyone?

As far as finger prints go, you're getting riled up over a heresay comment. The last time I was fingerprinted was in 1994..."back in the day" getting printed and photographed every time was a just part of the background check. So on that part, things have actually been a lot easier. But even if that has changed and its required every time? Well, it wasn't a problem then and still wouldn't be now. If they want to expend the effort to take prints every time, that's on them. I'm already there to do what I need to do. That's not apathy or blind conformity...I believe a problem is only a problem if you make it so.

All that aside, if you really need me to explain to you why you're having problems, then paperwork is the least of your worries. From your posts (not just this thread), it's pretty clear you hate HPD and seemingly Hawaii all together. That's a personal issue. Injecting that or making a big deal out of something that's unfounded is really not helpful in terms of this topic. People with Kaiser/Straub as stated in the OP have an actionable issue. Griping about having to do fingerprinting or claiming a letter is required for everyone (or whatever else conspiracy BS) diminishes what people need to pay attention to. SEVEN pages of comments and only 3 (according to HiCarry) have contacted Holcomb. Now that's something that should require explaining.
You decide which makes more sense. Is this all of this a result of Kaiser/Straub putting out a poorly worded letter/dumping medical files or because someone in Firearms Division got a wild hair (to make things harder)? Don't bother answering if you can not do it rationally or want to base a response on unfounded claims.

All I got is your rant about why you don't have a problem with it; still didn't answer my questions.

(try keep it civil)
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:12:15 PM by Heavies »

scorpio ps

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #138 on: November 26, 2015, 07:53:30 PM »
(edit)

Wow....  There's no love here. Not sure what beef there might be here but fellas, lets not forget what we are in a discussion about.  This is something that will affect you. Trust me if not today next month or next year, but it will affect you. 
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:13:13 PM by Heavies »

Gordyf

Re: New Change in Firearm Paper Work at HPD
« Reply #139 on: November 26, 2015, 08:38:37 PM »
(edit)

Wow....  There's no love here. Not sure what beef there might be here but fellas, lets not forget what we are in a discussion about.  This is something that will affect you. Trust me if not today next month or next year, but it will affect you.

I say again, they have divided and we are conquered.
We gotta get it together and fight them, not each other
Get a grip guys!  :'(
Gordy
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:13:38 PM by Heavies »
Aloha
Gordy