Yeah. That's why I don't know what the whole hunter Ed thing was about.

Especially since there is no firearms handling at the Hunter's Ed classes....so what benefit is it to have attended? Would said 9-12 year old shooting a center fire gun have learned anything that would have increased his ability to safely shoot a center fire gun? Nope!

Especially since there is no firearms handling at the Hunter's Ed classes....so what benefit is it to have attended? Would said 9-12 year old shooting a center fire gun have learned anything that would have increased his ability to safely shoot a center fire gun? Nope!

I was wondering the same thing.............may be the former hunter ed master instructor could explain why.

I was wondering the same thing.............may be the former hunter ed master instructor could explain why.

Maybe he could also explain why having loaded magazines on the bench is a problem on the pistol side and not the rifle side? Maybe he could also point out a comprehensive list of all of the range rules, just so everyone can be on the same page.

I shoot pistol side the most and personally like the rule of not having loaded magazines next to a pistol when folks are down range.  It only takes a few seconds for someone to grab someone else's firearm + magazine, load it and do something stupid.   

It's like my own rule that when I clean my firearms or do any kind of maintenance, I make sure there are no ammo in the same room or at least in my workspace. Never had any ND so far with that rule followed.

Not required but as far as I know, RSOs are the authority on their range and what rules they implement folks should comply.  As far as I know, this varies from RSO to RSO.

RSOs are the authority on their range and what rules they implement folks should comply.  As far as I know, this varies from RSO to RSO.

This isn't true.

The Rangemaster is the overseeing authority, and it is the responsibility of the RSOs to carry out his orders, not make up their own as to what they think should be happening.

That being said, it is therefore the fault of the Rangemaster to not post the exact rules up for all shooters to read and conform to, as well as the fact that the RSOs are not being corrected when implementing their own set of rules.


As far as the magazine rule goes, I also agree that no loaded magazines should be left near the firearm when the range is cold.

Does anybody really read the rules and understand them. Very few. People don't read now days. You have to force feed them. Where is your curiosity, ask questions if not clear ask again. Rules change get added and so on. Ask questions. When you sweep the guy next to you, saying that its not in the rules will make no difference. I am glad the RSO's are there. If they prevent me from getting hurt cause you didn't read the rules of didn't ask, I am on their side. You all are forgetting who's house you are in. No cheese or bubble gum from me.

Maybe he could also explain why having loaded magazines on the bench is a problem on the pistol side and not the rifle side?

From what I was told by a former supervisor, a tourist approached the bench and loaded a gun and shot himself in the head.

He could have easily loaded the gun and pointed down range and killed any number of people down range putting up targets.

Common sense would dictate that the long gun or rifleside benches are far enough away and spaced out that one would not be able to do the same with a long gun in the same amount of time as a pistol.

^^^  remember that day well.........what a mess


1 more BIG THANKS to the ROs for working to keep things safe.

From what I was told by a former supervisor, a tourist approached the bench and loaded a gun and shot himself in the head.

He could have easily loaded the gun and pointed down range and killed any number of people down range putting up targets.

Common sense would dictate that the long gun or rifleside benches are far enough away and spaced out that one would not be able to do the same with a long gun in the same amount of time as a pistol.

Wonder who would be responsible. I know you're at the range but you're not in charge of your weapon when you go down range. I have thought about it in the past but not in the sense of someone using your gun to shoot themselves. I thought that something might walk away.

Does anybody really read the rules and understand them. Very few. People don't read now days. You have to force feed them. Where is your curiosity, ask questions if not clear ask again. Rules change get added and so on. Ask questions. When you sweep the guy next to you, saying that its not in the rules will make no difference. I am glad the RSO's are there. If they prevent me from getting hurt cause you didn't read the rules of didn't ask, I am on their side. You all are forgetting who's house you are in. No cheese or bubble gum from me.

With the number of rules, do's, don't's and informative tips a new user at KHSC needs, it bothers me that there is no formal training and orientation.  The park seems to rely on Handgun Safety instructors, friends, family, and trial-error-get_yelled_at_by_RSO method of training.

I've been to ranges many times. Most have you at least read a list of rules, fill out an application including emergency contact info, and sign that you read them.  Others go as far as having you watch a 15 minute video with safety, range rules, and facility info.

Once you complete the formal training, you are registered in the computer system and provided a range card as proof of training.

I've even seen other ranges on the mainland offer the training online, so you can do the registration and training ahead of your visit in case you have any questions about what to bring, what's allowed or prohibited, etc.

A little education goes a long way to increase both enjoyment and safety.

my understanding was that the individual had mental issues and from what i heard was that the family was appologetic about the incident. the owner of the firearm was not the same after that.

It really doesn't pay to be a RO. I wish everyone were required to cycle through in service to the community as a RO. However, as with this past Sunday, no matter how nice we speak to someone, the most effective (i.e. they remember and won't do it again) method is to yell at them in the act or just after the act. In this case, same individual handled a revolver to load it while people were down range.

Of course, he gave attitude back after correcting him twice. Politely after the first time, and getting yelled at the second time. I've found there's rarely a second time after receiving an over-the-PA warning a first time.

I hope I don't need to explain why we consider handling a firearm or anything on the shooting bench when people are down range is a big no-no.

It really doesn't pay to be a RO. I wish everyone were required to cycle through in service to the community as a RO. However, as with this past Sunday, no matter how nice we speak to someone, the most effective (i.e. they remember and won't do it again) method is to yell at them in the act or just after the act. In this case, same individual handled a revolver to load it while people were down range.

Of course, he gave attitude back after correcting him twice. Politely after the first time, and getting yelled at the second time. I've found there's rarely a second time after receiving an over-the-PA warning a first time.

I hope I don't need to explain why we consider handling a firearm or anything on the shooting bench when people are down range is a big no-no.

Two words:

SHOCK COLLARS

 

Two words:

SHOCK COLLARS

 

For the ROs or the Shooters?

For the ROs or the Shooters?

Let's start with the shooters....

Hey shock collars work. I still have mine on. The one my wife put on me years ago. I'm with the RSO's all the way. They can yell at me all day, can't  hurt me. I am married......

Maybe he could also explain why having loaded magazines on the bench is a problem on the pistol side and not the rifle side? Maybe he could also point out a comprehensive list of all of the range rules, just so everyone can be on the same page.

I'm the former Hunter Ed master instructor. Left the program in 2007 due to massive disagreement with management concerning the effectiveness of the firearms portion of the course both long guns and pistols. You are correct there was no hands on. What I would do is bring in some of my firearms and snap caps to demonstrate safe handling, how each of the actions listing the the course book worked and properly unloading each type of action ensuring that they were in fact unloaded. Was not permitted to let any student touch the firearm due to "liability" concerns. The program did have three or four confiscated firearms that were de-activated. The actions did not work well and did not contribute to the learning experience.

Quite a few years ago (thikn it was after the Uesugi incident) all Master HE instructors testified and gave opinions to the legislature about HPD accepting the HE course completion card and a qualification to purchase a handgun. Myself and three other instructors were against this. Our reasoning was anyone who would be teaching the handgun portion of the course had to be a qualified and current NRA instructor and that range time would be needed/required. That meant all students would have to comply but would have given them hands on. the DOCARE head at the time (who we fell under) disagreed and sided with the five other instructors who did not feel it was necessary and managed to thwart our efforts for a better program and ramrodded their ideas and got it approved. Sad day.

All that being said the Hunter ED program does have a program whereas students 9-12 and score better than a 90% on the final exam can apply to attend a 5 day/4 night camp, sponsored by the Safari Club and the Hunter ED program, on the big island. There was a shooting day where they fired 22's, shotguns and muzzleloaders, range safety, firearms handling and cleaning. After completing that protion, the following day they actually walked a small sporting clay course set up the the instructors to teach "shoot/don't shoot". other than that, no actual training other than classroom. The requirement that a child between the ages of 9-12 can shoot centerfire if they attended Hunter ED is somewhat of a stupid concept since they only ones with experience where the ones who attended the camp.

As for loaded pistol mags being removed from the bench during a cease fire is a very sound policy which I fully support. All it takes is one nut case, one pissed off individual etc to come onto the pistol range, grab a mag and a gun (normally laying next to the loaded mag on the bench and start firing. An ounce of prevention iw worth a pound of cure and that policy makes me feel safer as well.

Hope this clears things up.....

From what I was told by a former supervisor, a tourist approached the bench and loaded a gun and shot himself in the head.

He could have easily loaded the gun and pointed down range and killed any number of people down range putting up targets.

Common sense would dictate that the long gun or rifleside benches are far enough away and spaced out that one would not be able to do the same with a long gun in the same amount of time as a pistol.

Sorry, but I disagree. It is not "common sense" that rules for loaded magazines should differ on the pistol side versus the rifle side. If anything, it should be the opposite because it would be much easier for someone on the rifle side to slap in a magazine and unload on those down range with a much more lethal weapon than a handgun, which would, taking into accounts from ranges across the nation, would much more likely be used for a suicide attempt.

But, your attitude of expecting everyone to know the rules because they are "common sense" is the very reason, IMHO and from my experiences at the range, why there is an issue. I don't think anyone is saying it's OK to break the rules, just that it would be nice to know them beforehand rather than to discover an arcane or little known rule specific to this range for the first time by some power hungry RSO who wants to demonstrate his knowledge of said rules by yelling through the PA. So, how about you post all the rules, for all the ranges, both online and prominently at the range so everyone can be on the same page? 

It really doesn't pay to be a RO. I wish everyone were required to cycle through in service to the community as a RO. However, as with this past Sunday, no matter how nice we speak to someone, the most effective (i.e. they remember and won't do it again) method is to yell at them in the act or just after the act. In this case, same individual handled a revolver to load it while people were down range.

Of course, he gave attitude back after correcting him twice. Politely after the first time, and getting yelled at the second time. I've found there's rarely a second time after receiving an over-the-PA warning a first time.

I hope I don't need to explain why we consider handling a firearm or anything on the shooting bench when people are down range is a big no-no.

And if the RSOs had watched the line a little better wouldn't they have seen the guy you mentioned walking up to the line, crossing over the yellow line and picking up the revolver before he could start loading it? And once he was identified as having a problem the first ("polite") time, shouldn't the RSOs been keeping a much closer eye on him?

I'm the former Hunter Ed master instructor. Left the program in 2007 due to massive disagreement with management concerning the effectiveness of the firearms portion of the course both long guns and pistols. You are correct there was no hands on. What I would do is bring in some of my firearms and snap caps to demonstrate safe handling, how each of the actions listing the the course book worked and properly unloading each type of action ensuring that they were in fact unloaded. Was not permitted to let any student touch the firearm due to "liability" concerns. The program did have three or four confiscated firearms that were de-activated. The actions did not work well and did not contribute to the learning experience.

Quite a few years ago (thikn it was after the Uesugi incident) all Master HE instructors testified and gave opinions to the legislature about HPD accepting the HE course completion card and a qualification to purchase a handgun. Myself and three other instructors were against this. Our reasoning was anyone who would be teaching the handgun portion of the course had to be a qualified and current NRA instructor and that range time would be needed/required. That meant all students would have to comply but would have given them hands on. the DOCARE head at the time (who we fell under) disagreed and sided with the five other instructors who did not feel it was necessary and managed to thwart our efforts for a better program and ramrodded their ideas and got it approved. Sad day.

All that being said the Hunter ED program does have a program whereas students 9-12 and score better than a 90% on the final exam can apply to attend a 5 day/4 night camp, sponsored by the Safari Club and the Hunter ED program, on the big island. There was a shooting day where they fired 22's, shotguns and muzzleloaders, range safety, firearms handling and cleaning. After completing that protion, the following day they actually walked a small sporting clay course set up the the instructors to teach "shoot/don't shoot". other than that, no actual training other than classroom. The requirement that a child between the ages of 9-12 can shoot centerfire if they attended Hunter ED is somewhat of a stupid concept since they only ones with experience where the ones who attended the camp.

As for loaded pistol mags being removed from the bench during a cease fire is a very sound policy which I fully support. All it takes is one nut case, one pissed off individual etc to come onto the pistol range, grab a mag and a gun (normally laying next to the loaded mag on the bench and start firing. An ounce of prevention iw worth a pound of cure and that policy makes me feel safer as well.

Hope this clears things up.....

Thanks for the history of the legislation. It's interesting to note but it doesn't clear up the question of why a 9-12 year-old who has successfully completed the HE course can shoot center fire guns on the range while the 9-12 year-old who hasn't is disallowed from shooting center fire. Maybe K9, who sounds like a current RSO, could answer the question?