I've been on the firing line a long time, well over 30 years.  Shot a lot of guns, watched a lot of other people shoot a lot more guns.  And, while I am not disputing anyone's personal experience, I feel I can authoritatively say:  semi-autos malfunction.  Period, end of story.  I've seen Sigs, Glocks, and Berettas malfunction.  Misfeeds, stovepipes, failures to fire, failures to extract, and double feeds.  Yes, I've even seen (and had) 1911s malfunction.  And, based solely on my personal experience, they all malfunction at more-or-less the same rate.  So, if you figure in the whole "Glocks have half as many moving parts" thing, then technically, they malfunction twice as often!    Honestly, though, I have won a pistol competition because a competitor's Glock malfunctioned.

My point, though, is that all semis malfunction.  Anyone who tries to sell you on a platform with the "it doesn't malfunction" line either hasn't shot enough, is experiencing selective recall, or is trying to sell you a gun. 

Unless, of course, we're talking about revolvers 

Glad you added that part...My 686 has never failed to go bang in the 22 years I've had it.

Quote from: Tom_G on October 15, 2011, 10:01:29 PM

<snip>
Unless, of course, we're talking about revolvers 

Glad you added that part...My 686 has never failed to go bang in the 22 years I've had it.

I can say the same about many of my revolvers.  And none of my semis. 

I prefer revolvers. I shoot autos for work and sport. Rifles are what I do best.

well, you need a screwdriver to get the grip panels off

Actually, the original design allowed for the rim of the cartridge case to remove the grip panels.  In the original, you will note that those screw slots are curved down inside to allow for the cartridge rim to be used as a screwdriver.  The screw studs themselves are not designed to be removed, and are sort of halfway staked in.  To my knowledge, only the ejector and front sight are completely unremovable, being staked on, as is the trigger to the trigger yoke or bar.  The rear sight is a wringing fit in the dovetail for adjustment.

In my experience, the 1911 does not come as "battle ready" as many other firearms.

Depends on what you mean by "battle ready."  If you mean it needs to be tricked out with three-dot adjustable sights and tuned up and tightened and cleaned and oiled lovingly every day for your personal "battle" carry arm, it is not. 

If you mean bust open a crate with your machete and take one out of the crate on Iwo Jima, drop it in the salt mud, and fire it as is for weeks on end, it is.

A parts count for the original indicates 62 of 'em, if I counted right.  That includes the mag, spring, and follower of one magazine, and all the parts in the mainspring housing, which is not meant to be field strippable, but rather replaced as one part.

For those having interest, the original factory drawings for all its parts are available at
 
http://www.loesch.org/~arviel/1911.zip 

This is about a 4 mB zipped pdf file.

One reason bullseye shooters like it is because the bigger bullet results in higher scores.  Consider a 9mm round hitting the target  1/2 of .355" = 0.1775" inches plus 0.0485 inches away from a scoring ring.  It would be counted as the next lower score.  But a .45 hitting the exact same spot would touch the scoring ring and be counted at the higher score.  Sometimes just that one extra point can be a tie-breaker, as you ring-shooters know.

Add 0.001" if you're shooting a .38 at .357" diameter.

As a frivolous further illustration, if you hit anywhere on the paper with the center of a 16" naval rifle shell, it would be counted as in the X-ring.  Gives new meaning to the expression "Cleaned the stage," eh, wot?



Terry, 230RN

Quote

well, you need a screwdriver to get the grip panels off

Actually, the original design allowed for the rim of the cartridge case to remove the grip panels.  In the original, you will note that those screw slots are curved down inside to allow for the cartridge rim to be used as a screwdriver. 

You know, I had noticed that on my Dad's Ithaca (now my Ithaca).  I wondered what the reason was.  Yay!  It's an even BETTER gun than I had thought!!

Quote

In my experience, the 1911 does not come as "battle ready" as many other firearms.

Depends on what you mean by "battle ready."  If you mean it needs to be tricked out with three-dot adjustable sights and tuned up and tightened and cleaned and oiled lovingly every day for your personal "battle" carry arm, it is not. 

If you mean bust open a crate with your machete and take one out of the crate on Iwo Jima, drop it in the salt mud, and fire it as is for weeks on end, it is.

^^^THAT

Quote from: Kingkeoni on October 15, 2011, 08:38:46 AM

Quote from: Teichi on October 14, 2011, 09:50:41 PM

Not many service pistols can be tuned to shoot 3" groups at 50 yards.

Never been a real big fan of the 1911 platform.

I know there are some great ones but I've personally seen more malfunctions with 1911's than with Glocks.


 I have a Glock 22 that I can shoot 3" groups with at 50 yards.

I take it to the plinking range and knock down the bolts at the 50 yard mark.

Talk is cheap. NRA regional is 29-30 Oct at Koko Head. The .45 Match is Sunday morning.

Yo Teichi, I've never shot competitively, nor do I know anything about shooting competitively. How much of winning in competition is dependent on equipment? In other words assuming that I'm a decent shot, could I show up at the .45 match with my no frills sig p220 and expect to make a respectable showing?

Quote from: Teichi on October 15, 2011, 05:50:26 PM

Quote from: Kingkeoni on October 15, 2011, 08:38:46 AM

Quote from: Teichi on October 14, 2011, 09:50:41 PM

Not many service pistols can be tuned to shoot 3" groups at 50 yards.

Never been a real big fan of the 1911 platform.

I know there are some great ones but I've personally seen more malfunctions with 1911's than with Glocks.


 I have a Glock 22 that I can shoot 3" groups with at 50 yards.

I take it to the plinking range and knock down the bolts at the 50 yard mark.

Talk is cheap. NRA regional is 29-30 Oct at Koko Head. The .45 Match is Sunday morning.

How much of winning in competition is dependent on equipment?

^ This.

The reality if if someone has a scoped pistol vs a bone stock pistol with generally similar skills, the better equipment wins.
Thats why they created classes in shooting competitions.

Talk is cheap, good equipment is expensive.

Quote from: 230RN on October 16, 2011, 02:26:16 PM

Quote

In my experience, the 1911 does not come as "battle ready" as many other firearms.

Depends on what you mean by "battle ready."  If you mean it needs to be tricked out with three-dot adjustable sights and tuned up and tightened and cleaned and oiled lovingly every day for your personal "battle" carry arm, it is not. 

If you mean bust open a crate with your machete and take one out of the crate on Iwo Jima, drop it in the salt mud, and fire it as is for weeks on end, it is.

^^^THAT

We can agree to disagree. There are reasons most people and organizations are NOT using 1911's as their secondary. It was good.... it's good when you drop $$$ in it, but for a standard issue gun -- not worth it imo.
Out of the shooting I have done in the last year, EVERY malfunction has been a 1911. (except for my stupid walther p22, which lately likes to FTE *** wtf S&W?? ***)

A bad driver in a Ferrari is still a bad driver. Good equipment can never compensate for bad technique.

My most prestigeous matches are international competitions with rack service rifles and pistols. The winners get to go home alive. I figure that better training is the reason we are not speaking German or Russian. I shoot M16A2 and M9 because they are the weapons that my job says I have to use against all enemies - both foreign and domestic.

Talk is cheap. If a Glock, SIG, HK, and a 1911 all shot 3" groups at 50yards, then the guy with the best skill should win.

A bad driver in a Ferrari is still a bad driver. Good equipment can never compensate for bad technique.

My most prestigeous matches are international competitions with rack service rifles and pistols. The winners get to go home alive. I figure that better training is the reason we are not speaking German or Russian. I shoot M16A2 and M9 because they are the weapons that my job says I have to use against all enemies - both foreign and domestic.

Talk is cheap. If a Glock, SIG, HK, and a 1911 all shot 3" groups at 50yards, then the guy with the best skill should win.

Do units who have unlimited incomes, use 1911?

1911's are still in Army, Air Force, Mariine and Navy inventories. Most are used for marksmanship competition. Some special units still use it as a duty weapon. Not many people know how to fix them anymore. It's easier to replace. Safety levers work different than M9. Down for M9 is SAFE. Down for 1911 is fire. This is why I cringe when a newbie Service Member wants to buy a 1911.

Quote from: Teichi on October 17, 2011, 01:36:45 AM

A bad driver in a Ferrari is still a bad driver. Good equipment can never compensate for bad technique.

My most prestigeous matches are international competitions with rack service rifles and pistols. The winners get to go home alive. I figure that better training is the reason we are not speaking German or Russian. I shoot M16A2 and M9 because they are the weapons that my job says I have to use against all enemies - both foreign and domestic.

Talk is cheap. If a Glock, SIG, HK, and a 1911 all shot 3" groups at 50yards, then the guy with the best skill should win.

Do units who have unlimited incomes, use 1911?

I know MARSOC uses them.  I'm pretty sure other SOCOM teams use them as well.

Some things to think about when looking at a 1911.

Everyone says that you need to put money into them to make them reliable.  Consider that there are just an incredible amount of people who make the 1911.  I'm talking not just large manufacturers, but mom and pop operations out of their garages.  There are 1911's that run from GI to race guns.  How reliable do you think a Sig, HK, Glock would be if you have all these people making parts for them?  How reliable when you don't even use the same parts from a single manufacturer to put the pistol together (so those that talk about AR15's.....those are to a mil spec, the 1911 is not)?

The design is often disparaged because it's old.  The Ma Deuce is old as is the AK47, yet who dings those two designs that are widely used today?  Heck the Glock is getting pretty long in the tooth by that argument as well.

Speaking of these old field guns, lets not forget that you usually take tolerance away to make those guns more reliable.  First thing people do when they get their 1911 is usually try to make the tolerances even tighter. 

I just bought my first 1911 this year.  I got quite a good deal because I think the former owner had more money than time/knowledge.  The magazine was contributing to some issues with the pistol and it was extremely obvious.  These same people will blame the gun when this is the same case with any gun be it a Glock, HK, Sig, AR15, AK47.



Anyhow for me.........I like the 1911 trigger, I feel it's the best out there right now.  I like the 45 acp round and being in Hawaii with the ammo cap, I have no reason to shift from the round.  I've been a Sig guy since forever, but I have issues reaching the trigger, transitioning from the DA/SA at distance for the first shot/follow up, and I wanted something that the grip would be more something I like for size.

<moderately off-topic side note>

Thats why they created classes in shooting competitions.

Yeah, but.  I quit shooting in Handgun Metallic Silhouette competition "Factory" class because I was using my Honest-To-Gawd-straight-from-the-factory S&W 19 field sidearm per the rules.  Which I actually carried, in a holster, all over the Grasslands and mountains.

I was always in the middle of the pack on the scoring sheet back at the range shack and quit when I realized why.

The "Rules" can always be bent.  Too many of the competitors were using Buck Rogers super-dooper tricked out guns with enhanced sight radii and lapped bores and the like which you couldn't even get into a holster.

Yup.  They were legitimately "factory" guns.  From some little bona-fide "factories" which produced maybe 10 specially-made guns a year.

But they were out of the box "factory-made," hence their guns were "legal" to shoot in the "factory" class.

For a couple of matches after that, I shot only against myself, realizing full well that the trophies would always go to the other "factory" gunners, and that I'd never be able to consistently break the middle-of-the-list barrier against "factory" guns like that. For one or two matches where everything went right and I hadn't had any coffee that morning, I got maybe 3/4 up the list.

<grumble>

I guess Rules are made to be wiggled around.

</moderately off-topic side note>

Terry "Sour Grapes," 230RN <grumble, grumble>

<moderately off-topic side note>

Quote

Thats why they created classes in shooting competitions.

Yeah, but.  I quit shooting in Handgun Metallic Silhouette competition "Factory" class because I was using my Honest-To-Gawd-straight-from-the-factory S&W 19 field sidearm per the rules.  Which I actually carried, in a holster, all over the Grasslands and mountains.

I was always in the middle of the pack on the scoring sheet back at the range shack and quit when I realized why.

The "Rules" can always be bent.  Too many of the competitors were using Buck Rogers super-dooper tricked out guns with enhanced sight radii and lapped bores and the like which you couldn't even get into a holster.

Yup.  They were legitimately "factory" guns.  From some little bona-fide "factories" which produced maybe 10 specially-made guns a year.

But they were out of the box "factory-made," hence their guns were "legal" to shoot in the "factory" class.

For a couple of matches after that, I shot only against myself, realizing full well that the trophies would always go to the other "factory" gunners, and that I'd never be able to consistently break the middle-of-the-list barrier against "factory" guns like that.

<grumble>

I guess Rules are made to be wiggled around.

</moderately off-topic side note>

Terry "Sour Grapes," 230RN <grumble, grumble>

So what you're saying is in a real life competition, the guys with the superior equipment won?

That's incredible...

I'm a newbie to the sport and recently picked up Glock for starters. Didn't pick it up because it’s better than a Sig or any other handgun in the looks or accuracy. I did it because it seemed to be a decent way to start for the money. While reading up on handguns before I purchased mine, I was intrigued by the cult-like following of the 1911 and wondered what made it one of the most popular models of all time. I mean the design IS over 100 years old and gun manufacturers have surely "improved" on ergonomics, weight, etc. using more "advanced" manufacturing techniques and materials. Is it the war history or the endless number of custom parts available? Is it because it’s so tough and versatile that you can hunt with it using one end and do carpentry with the other (all without a single cleaning of course)? Help me understand it. I’d love to become a member of the cult.

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention... the instant you start to talk about the 1911, you start a war.  Welcome to the cult!

So what you're saying is in a real life competition, the guys with the superior equipment won?

<grumble grumble>  Yeah, but I'd like to see them try to put those Zoomar guns to use anyplace but on the firing line.... "superior" only there.

<grump> <grouse> <grumble>

At unknown ranges, where yer  makes yer guess as to distance and holds up yer front sight just soooo far...

<growf>

That's a problem I do have with the 1911.  The sights are too small for up-sight-holding for lobbing bullets at longer ranges.  Yeah, it's a close range last-ditch personal protection weapon for battle areas, but you have to sort of center the whole front of the slide on the rear sight and sit the target on top of the almost-invisible front sight if you're going to do any "artillery-type" work with it, which is useless except for just plain ole fun-fun and maybe, stretching it, covering or supressive fire.

i like it for the trigger and grip as well. i learned on glocks, but once i got to shoot the single stack it was instant love. 

i got to shoot a friend's, after that i knew i wanted one.

I have Glocks, S&W's, Berettas, and more.... Some make me look better than others at practical pistol but it is usually me, the shooter when the target has large spaces b/t the holes, lol. I have 2 1911's, but VERY recently got a Kimber Raptor II (since I moved to Hawaii, btw). I took it back home in July for my mainland trip, and I CCW'd this pistol while back there.... not only does it look good, feel good, smell good, etc but took it out to shoot twice. OMFG, what a nice shooting pistol. Never thought I'd want a big 1911 for CCW but this is my newestest, bestest, most favoritestes pistol I own. 1911 is king in my book, at least for now!

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!