Magazine Capacity in AR's (Read 2290 times)

vooduchikn

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Magazine Capacity in AR's
« on: October 16, 2011, 12:57:56 AM »
--------------- Bunch of Crap on AR-15 magazines from another thread ------------------
Topic split and all OT content was relocated to this thread.
Voodoo did not start the question, just the first OT response.

(Modified by FT)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2011, 12:57:49 AM by Funtimes »
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vooduchikn

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2011, 01:30:52 AM »
Actually, that brings up a question I had.

Total magazine capacity in Hawaii = 10 rounds, correct?  I think someone at Gun Source mentioned that it was legal to own 30 round magazines.  Is this true or false?

- joon

Buy them while you can...that is all I am going to say.  They are in every gun store that I can think of (all 4, maybe 5 now that  the "secret gun store" is open).
Relax, I've banned myself..

Kingkeoni

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2011, 05:56:44 AM »
Actually, that brings up a question I had.

Total magazine capacity in Hawaii = 10 rounds, correct?  I think someone at Gun Source mentioned that it was legal to own 30 round magazines.  Is this true or false?

- joon

The law reads weird. It says rifle mags are ok as long as they can't be used in a pistol.
Hawaii's legal definition of a pistol makes the magazines legal.

Like Voodu said, every gun store but one sell them.

5 out of 6 that I count (+1 for the "pupu pop") (thats the name I just made up for the new gun store)
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Funtimes

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2011, 07:34:25 AM »
Actually, that brings up a question I had.

Total magazine capacity in Hawaii = 10 rounds, correct?  I think someone at Gun Source mentioned that it was legal to own 30 round magazines.  Is this true or false?

- joon

The law reads weird. It says rifle mags are ok as long as they can't be used in a pistol.
Hawaii's legal definition of a pistol makes the magazines ILlegal.

Fixed for you.

Kingkeoni

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2011, 09:01:49 AM »
Actually, that brings up a question I had.

Total magazine capacity in Hawaii = 10 rounds, correct?  I think someone at Gun Source mentioned that it was legal to own 30 round magazines.  Is this true or false?

- joon

The law reads weird. It says rifle mags are ok as long as they can't be used in a pistol.
Hawaii's legal definition of a pistol makes the magazines ILlegal.

Fixed for you.

Definitely Not illegal.
I've personally talked to Keith kaneshiro about this particular subject.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Funtimes

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2011, 11:41:40 AM »
We have gone over with at least six different attorneys, and there is no way to way to get around the statutory construction of the law and use a AR-15 magazine.  True M-4's are pistols under Hawaii law.
Kaneshiro doesn't know his own laws King; he made that quite evident that his logical reasoning is severely handicapped in the debate between Hi-Carry and himself on PBS.

Magazines capable of use in a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length, can not be over 10 rounds in capacity.

Additional Points:
-- There is no "capable of use in pistols that can be legally owned in Hawaii" exclusion.
-- It's all fairly clear.
-- There were reports of MPPL having some sort of information from the AG saying exactly what we have been telling you.
-- because it's sold in a store doesn't make it legal (e.g., butterfly knives).

Lastly, I would bet my and Hi-Carry's knowledge of the laws and their construction and reading against anyone at the AG's office.  I could prove you wrong for good, but people might not like the result, so don't ask me to. :P

Kingkeoni

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2011, 05:02:08 PM »
We have gone over with at least six different attorneys, and there is no way to way to get around the statutory construction of the law and use a AR-15 magazine.  True M-4's are pistols under Hawaii law.
Kaneshiro doesn't know his own laws King; he made that quite evident that his logical reasoning is severely handicapped in the debate between Hi-Carry and himself on PBS.

Magazines capable of use in a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length, can not be over 10 rounds in capacity.

Additional Points:
-- There is no "capable of use in pistols that can be legally owned in Hawaii" exclusion.
-- It's all fairly clear.
-- There were reports of MPPL having some sort of information from the AG saying exactly what we have been telling you.
-- because it's sold in a store doesn't make it legal (e.g., butterfly knives).

Lastly, I would bet my and Hi-Carry's knowledge of the laws and their construction and reading against anyone at the AG's office.  I could prove you wrong for good, but people might not like the result, so don't ask me to. :P

Hawaii has created different classifications of firearms.

They have classified pistols as...
     "Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.

And assault pistols as:
     "Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:

     (1)  An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

     (3)  A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;

     (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

     (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or

     (6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;

The letter of the law regarding 10 round magazines reads as:
     (c)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.

Sections 1,2,3,4&5 of this subsection disqualify AR and AK "assault pistols" as pistols.
Since the letter of the law specifically states that a magazine "capable of use in a pistol" (never mentioning assault pistol, which is an ENTIRELY different class) the magazines are legal.

Furthermore section C specifically states:    (c)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited.

What this means is that if the magazines were indeed illegal, every gun store owner in Hawaii would be in violation of the law because they are sold at every single gun store but one.

There is an annual inspection by HPD and the ATF of the gun stores. If there was a violation of the law they would be shut down.

Bottom line.
30 round magazines are Legal.


I appreciate that you familiarize yourself with Hawaii laws but you're wrong.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 05:15:00 PM by Kingkeoni »
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Dregs

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2011, 06:00:34 PM »
We have gone over with at least six different attorneys, and there is no way to way to get around the statutory construction of the law and use a AR-15 magazine.  True M-4's are pistols under Hawaii law.
Kaneshiro doesn't know his own laws King; he made that quite evident that his logical reasoning is severely handicapped in the debate between Hi-Carry and himself on PBS.

Magazines capable of use in a firearm with a barrel less than 16 inches in length, can not be over 10 rounds in capacity.

Additional Points:
-- There is no "capable of use in pistols that can be legally owned in Hawaii" exclusion.
-- It's all fairly clear.
-- There were reports of MPPL having some sort of information from the AG saying exactly what we have been telling you.
-- because it's sold in a store doesn't make it legal (e.g., butterfly knives).

Lastly, I would bet my and Hi-Carry's knowledge of the laws and their construction and reading against anyone at the AG's office.  I could prove you wrong for good, but people might not like the result, so don't ask me to. :P

Hawaii has created different classifications of firearms.

They have classified pistols as...
     "Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.

And assault pistols as:
     "Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:

     (1)  An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

     (3)  A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;

     (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

     (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or

     (6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;

The letter of the law regarding 10 round magazines reads as:
     (c)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited. This subsection shall not apply to magazines originally designed to accept more than ten rounds of ammunition which have been modified to accept no more than ten rounds and which are not capable of being readily restored to a capacity of more than ten rounds.

Sections 1,2,3,4&5 of this subsection disqualify AR and AK "assault pistols" as pistols.
Since the letter of the law specifically states that a magazine "capable of use in a pistol" (never mentioning assault pistol, which is an ENTIRELY different class) the magazines are legal.

Furthermore section C specifically states:    (c)  The manufacture, possession, sale, barter, trade, gift, transfer, or acquisition of detachable ammunition magazines with a capacity in excess of ten rounds which are designed for or capable of use with a pistol is prohibited.

What this means is that if the magazines were indeed illegal, every gun store owner in Hawaii would be in violation of the law because they are sold at every single gun store but one.

There is an annual inspection by HPD and the ATF of the gun stores. If there was a violation of the law they would be shut down.

Bottom line.
30 round magazines are Legal.


I appreciate that you familiarize yourself with Hawaii laws but you're wrong.

That.......is fascinating.

Funtimes

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2011, 06:10:48 PM »
 I'm sorry, but I have had numerous other people (with vastly more legal experience than you or I ** and your attorney general**) look at the construction of the sentences. You are 100% without a doubt, wrong.  If not, many people in HDF,NRA, HRA, CGF, my attorneys, other random attorneys, MPPL (who had a letter from the AG), and KKHSC are also wrong, which is not the case.

Additionally, your argument purports the most illogical construction of statute possible. It's either a pistol or its not.  Assault pistol is not a CLASS Of weapon (additional info@1), it is an additional classifier, like saying you can have a compact car, but not a coupe.   We didn't make a new car, just limited the models you can get.  There are ONLY two types of firearms when dealing with magazines: Pistols, and not pistols. These are defined by barrel length.  What idiot thought this 'split classification' up needs to be smacked in the face with a trout. If you don't believe me, get a legal adviser and have them explain to the construction of the laws. The dumbest thing of all, is you are trying to define something new, when it INCLUDED the defined term (i.e., an assault pistol, is a 'semi-automatic PISTOL').

I hate to get into some sort of pissing contest, but you really have no idea what people do and don't enforce.  For example, you can't shoot your handgun at kokohead without committing a felony offense, obviously not enforced.   Very commonly switchblades and other illegal devices are sold and manufactured in this state; you don't see the ninja swat teams taking those people down. It's not worth the states time or effort to try and prosecute for such minimal misdemeanors offenses. Additionally, the justice system here LIKES their vagueness. This way, if some idiot goes on a rampage, they are able to stick him with more charges.  As far as your inspections go, the police overall don't even know what legal and what is not (see "lets call Martha at Young Guns").

Furthermore, even under your misguided assumption that there are multiple classes of weapons, the term assault pistol only applies to "detachable" magazines. There are AK pistols that are single shot and still accept the magazine, but it is fixed in place.  Moreover, you can pin your magazine and make it fixed ala bullet button, thereby making a pistol (even with those 'evil' features of the assault pistol) legal -- but still a pistol accepting a magazine.

If you are so sure, lets go down to the police department with your loaded 30 round magazine in the gun and no balls them that they can't do shit to you about it. 

I may be wrong about many things, but the construction and understanding of HRS-134 is not one of them. 


#1 Hell technically we don't even know what the hell other guns are since only pistol is defined. Our definitions don't follow along with the federal guidelines, which is what we are supposed to defer to, but we can't.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 06:20:48 PM by Funtimes »

Kingkeoni

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #9 on: October 16, 2011, 07:02:49 PM »
I appreciate that you don't agree and you interpret the law a different way but you're wrong.

You honestly believe that every gun store owner would subject himself to criminal prosecution by knowingly breaking the law?

I have first hand knowledge of the few times where some police officer saw the law the same way as you do and the judge threw the charge out.

Regardless of how you interpret the law. Case law sets precedent.
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Funtimes

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #10 on: October 16, 2011, 07:04:10 PM »
A Pistol:

  • Is a weapon, in which the operating force is an explosive;

  • is capable of discharging loaded ammunition;

  • and has a barrel less than 16 inches in length;

and is semi-automatic when:

  • its mode of operation uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to extract a fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each single pull of a trigger.

Now the Assault Pistol:

  • is a pistol (see above)
  • is semi-automatic
  • has a detachable magazine
  • has at least two of six evil features

Funtimes

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #11 on: October 16, 2011, 07:04:33 PM »
I appreciate that you don't agree and you interpret the law a different way but you're wrong.

You honestly believe that every gun store owner would subject himself to criminal prosecution by knowingly breaking the law?

I have first hand knowledge of the few times where some police officer saw the law the same way as you do and the judge threw the charge out.

Regardless of how you interpret the law. Case law sets precedent.

Less talk, more citations. And only appeals courts set precedent outside of that court, and that judge.

You commit a felony every time you shoot a pistol at Kokohead, go look at the types of firearms that are authorized for target shooting (hint: handgun isn't in there!).   I'm going to guess you didn't read the preliminary injunction we filed.  It has a pretty clear ass breakdown of the sheer stupidity of Hawaii laws and how they are logically incomplete and circular.

Additionally, answer this:  Can you carry your loaded firearm, concealed on your person, around the police station?
« Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:11:41 PM by Funtimes »

Kingkeoni

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2011, 07:11:57 PM »
   
Now the Assault Pistol:

  • is a pistol (see above)
  • is semi-automatic
  • has a detachable magazine
  • has at least two of six evil features

This is your definition. Not the HRS.[/list]
Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

Funtimes

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2011, 07:15:42 PM »
Gents,

Just a question on rules at Koko Head:
1.  Safer to show up with 10 round magazines?
2.  Would they freak out if I had one of those bump-fire stocks w/ a 30 round magazine?

Just curious.  I'm currently abroad right now, so I can't do either.  (I only have 1 x 10 round magazine!)

You could show up with 30 round magazines, and it's very likely no one would do anything to you. (Just as if no one would ticket you for walking on the left side of the cross walk -- which is illegal, just like 30rd AR mags). I think the kokohead range masters would shit a chicken if you had the slidefire stock.  I want one though =o

Funtimes

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Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2011, 07:16:42 PM »
       
    Now the Assault Pistol:

    • is a pistol (see above)
    • is semi-automatic
    • has a detachable magazine
    • has at least two of six evil features

    This is your definition. Not the HRS.[/list]

    Dude, seriously? ITS SAYS A FRIGGEN SEMIAUTOMATIC PISTOL ARE YOU BLIND?

    §134-1  Definitions. As used in this chapter, unless the context indicates otherwise:

    "Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol (Well now WTF is a pistol??? LETS SEE) which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:

    "Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.

    You could just as easily say:
    "Assault pistol" means a firearm [that] uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to extract a fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each single pull of a trigger, of any shape, with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas, which accepts a detachable magazine, and which has two or more of the following characteristics:


    This isn't MY Definition, its plugging in the DEFINED terms, into the damn statute.  Seriously... stop your Q.Q. you are wrong. Show me the case or give up already.
    « Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:26:05 PM by Funtimes »

    Kingkeoni

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    Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
    « Reply #15 on: October 16, 2011, 07:32:23 PM »
         
      Now the Assault Pistol:

      • is a pistol (see above)
      • is semi-automatic
      • has a detachable magazine
      • has at least two of six evil features

      This is your definition. Not the HRS.[/list]

      Dude, seriously? ITS SAYS A FRIGGEN SEMIAUTOMATIC PISTOL ARE YOU BLIND?

      §134-1  Definitions. As used in this chapter, unless the context indicates otherwise:

      "Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol (Well now WTF is a pistol??? LETS SEE) which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:

      "Pistol" or "revolver" means any firearm of any shape with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas.

      You could just as easily say:
      "Assault pistol" means a firearm [that] uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to extract a fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each single pull of a trigger, of any shape, with a barrel less than sixteen inches in length and capable of discharging loaded ammunition or any noxious gas, which accepts a detachable magazine, and which has two or more of the following characteristics:


      This isn't MY Definition, its plugging in the DEFINED terms, into the damn statute.  Seriously... stop your Q.Q. you are wrong. Show me the case or give up already.

      Chris I like you but I think you are the blind one.

      The statute reads:      "Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:

           (1)  An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

           (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

           (3)  A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;

           (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

           (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more;

      You can't dissect the sentence and see whatever you want.
      It has to be a semiautomatic pistol that fits in the definition of subsections 1,2,3,4 & 5.

      Chris you're wrong.

      Your desire to argue notwithstanding, you're wrong.

      You can have the last word and answer anything you want.
      I'm done discussing this subject with you.
      Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.

      Someday someone may kill you with your own gun, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.

      Funtimes

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      Re: Slide Fire Solutions (Bump Fire)
      « Reply #16 on: October 16, 2011, 07:34:51 PM »
      I will go to bed knowing you have no clue what you are talking about, and that you are in dire need of a legal writing course and a seminar in statute construction! I still <3 you none the less.

      -- There are multiple qualifying factors in the first sentence, they must all be met prior to moving onto the evil features.  You must know the definition of each term in the qualifying sentence or you couldn't classify an assault pistol.  This is exactly why you  have definitions for "semi-automatic" and "pistol."  Those terms had to be identified to qualify the "assault pistol." Strangely, we don't have one for detachable - yet.

      Go learn how they do jury instructions and how each bracket of the sentence must be qualified to be charged with certain offenses.


      All in all -- Cite the damn case.  I bet you a case of beer you can't do it.


      Right now it's your word against numerous lawyers, three organizations (MPPL, HDF, HRA), a gun shop (which I believe is young guns, where HPD supposedly calls for 'legal' advice on firearms), many of my friends at Calguns Foundation, and other extremely smart law-students who are doing this type of stuff every day. So tired of this discussion, it has been hashed out like six times already.  Some just don't seem to get it.  It's illegal, but not enforced.

      My last example for you is:

      Compact Car means: a motor-vehicle that weighs < 2 tons.

      Assault car means:  A compact car, with a turbo charger.

      A mini has a turbo charger, and weighs less than two tons - its is both an assault car and a compact car.  All AC's -> are CC.   If it is not a compact car, then it is logically impossible to be an assault car. Not all CC are AC's (this would be a logical fallacy).
      « Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 07:52:26 PM by Funtimes »

      Funtimes

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      Re: Magazine Capacity in AR's
      « Reply #17 on: October 16, 2011, 08:00:57 PM »
      Oh yeah King.

      .223 may also be primarily a HANDGUN (also read pistol) cartridge. :P  Not sure how you argue that a cartridge primarily for use in handguns, is not capable of use in a pistol.

      We will find out when Elite Ammo is done in court.
      http://sportsmansnews.com/forum/general/is-atf-changing-the-rules-on-ammunition/

      You can also see much of the same stuff here:
      http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html

      Notice how he gets around the exemptions, by circumventing the qualifying factors in the sentence.

      Just to stir the pot more: What about persons who could lawfully own a fully automatic weapons (anyone exempted from 134-8), but has a firearm that is less than 16 inches (say... m4 or some SMG).  What now?
      They don't even finish the sentence on 'assault pistol'.
      « Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 08:23:55 PM by Funtimes »

      vooduchikn

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      Re: Magazine Capacity in AR's
      « Reply #18 on: October 16, 2011, 09:40:11 PM »
      Getting real tired of having my posts edited.

      Someone else started this post...now it looks like I did it. 

      Why bother posting anymore?


      « Last Edit: October 16, 2011, 09:49:39 PM by vooduchikn »
      Relax, I've banned myself..

      808shooter

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      Re: Magazine Capacity in AR's
      « Reply #19 on: October 16, 2011, 09:42:02 PM »
      WTF Chris, are you thereby saying that I cannot put > 10gal of gas in my Corolla?