I have a Glock 34 that I've made a bunch of changes to (Ghost Evo Trigger, Springs, Safety Plunger, etc) and it really has improved how much I enjoy shooting it.

I've heard that those kinds of upgrades could/would be held against me in a situation where I ended up using that gun in self defense as the argument might go something like, "you made changes to the gun to make it more deadly."

To avoid that problem, I recently got a Glock 19 that I was intending on keeping completely stock.  Shooting it over the weekend though, I am reminded on how different stock is, and I really don't like it.

My question is whether you guys think doing something as small as swapping the stock trigger connector that came with my Glock 19 (5.5lbs) with the spare trigger connector that came with my G34 (4.5lbs) would be considered an "upgrade" along the lines of what I was originally worried about.  I'm not even sure if the difference will be that significant, but was thinking it might make me like the 19 more and might be ok since this is an original Glock part. 

This whole line of concern is quite annoying to me, but I'm hoping some of you out there had some insight that what may be in the minds of prosecutors who go after people who take action in self defense.

I've heard such speculation before regarding gun modifications.  I've also heard similar discussion on ammo choices and people going with what the local PD uses.  However, I never could decide for myself how much of that was speculation and how much was from "real life" experiences.

One of my best friends is a former prosecuting attorney.  Since he moved on from that job, he's developed quite an interest in firearms, particularly for defensive use.  I admit that I helped in that regard. . . 

Anyways, back on topic.  I'll talk with him about this next time I see him.  I know his Sig is stock with a Streamlight.  He also has a used Glock 19 that came with a Ghost trigger and Trijicon HD sights.  Since getting the gun, he changed out the extractor and the ejector because he was getting stove-pipes and brass to the face.  Not sure if he swapped out the action spring as well.  We went to the range recently and whatever he changed out seems to have resolved his issues.  In my mind, the changes were all about ensuring that the gun functions properly.  For triggers, as long as they aren't monkeyed with to be super light, then I would think it wouldn't be an issue.  That said, you never know. . .

Just curious, but why'd you change the safety plunger? Was the spring the action spring?  If you still have the stock action spring, I could use a spare for my 34.  Hehe 

I've heard such speculation before regarding gun modifications.  I've also heard similar discussion on ammo choices and people going with what the local PD uses.  However, I never could decide for myself how much of that was speculation and how much was from "real life" experiences.

One of my best friends is a former prosecuting attorney.  Since he moved on from that job, he's developed quite an interest in firearms, particularly for defensive use.  I admit that I helped in that regard. . . 

Anyways, back on topic.  I'll talk with him about this next time I see him.  I know his Sig is stock with a Streamlight.  He also has a used Glock 19 that came with a Ghost trigger and Trijicon HD sights.  Since getting the gun, he changed out the extractor and the ejector because he was getting stove-pipes and brass to the face.  Not sure if he swapped out the action spring as well.  We went to the range recently and whatever he changed out seems to have resolved his issues.  In my mind, the changes were all about ensuring that the gun functions properly.  For triggers, as long as they aren't monkeyed with to be super light, then I would think it wouldn't be an issue.  That said, you never know. . .

Just curious, but why'd you change the safety plunger? Was the spring the action spring?  If you still have the stock action spring, I could use a spare for my 34.  Hehe 

Thanks for offering to check.  A former prosecutor's opinion would definitely be welcome.

I'm not sure of the proper names for the springs, but I've changed ALL of the coiled ones.  Combined with the Ghost Evo Elite trigger (which I like a lot better than the Ghost Rocket which I also have) the trigger pull is night and day different.  Relatively cheap upgrades too as I got a whole set of different spring weights to replace each spring for fine tuning for not much money at all.  I do intend to keep all the stock stuff, just in case I ever want to return it to stock though...  Downside to all the spring tuning is that the trigger safety doesn't always function properly as the trigger does not always return all the way forward to engage it.  Finger off the trigger anyway right?  Pull weight is around 3.5 lbs, I think.

I got the gold/titanium safety plunger and reduced safety plunger spring on a bit of a whim after reading too much internet.  Supposedly, it being lighter would smooth the trigger further as the trigger bar (?) had an easier time depressing the plunger.  Honestly I don't think I could tell the difference on that change, but I left it in anyway. 

I have a Glock 34 that I've made a bunch of changes to (Ghost Evo Trigger, Springs, Safety Plunger, etc) and it really has improved how much I enjoy shooting it.

I've heard that those kinds of upgrades could/would be held against me in a situation where I ended up using that gun in self defense as the argument might go something like, "you made changes to the gun to make it more deadly."

To avoid that problem, I recently got a Glock 19 that I was intending on keeping completely stock.  Shooting it over the weekend though, I am reminded on how different stock is, and I really don't like it.

My question is whether you guys think doing something as small as swapping the stock trigger connector that came with my Glock 19 (5.5lbs) with the spare trigger connector that came with my G34 (4.5lbs) would be considered an "upgrade" along the lines of what I was originally worried about.  I'm not even sure if the difference will be that significant, but was thinking it might make me like the 19 more and might be ok since this is an original Glock part. 

This whole line of concern is quite annoying to me, but I'm hoping some of you out there had some insight that what may be in the minds of prosecutors who go after people who take action in self defense.

I am not going to make any suggestions nor is anything that I say to be construed as legal advice.

Any firearm I use for self defense be stock to the point that the firearm has no weaknesses that causes it to be unreliable. I modify it only to make it more reliable. What I have found is generally speaking the most reliable firearms are those that are stock. Not for legal purposes as you stated but because some mods done to a lot of guns are not conducive to make it more reliable. In fact usually make it more unreliable. Even if it only stove pipes every 50 or 100 rounds. Or light strikes every 50 or 100 rounds. DO you want to take that chance that it doesn't do those things when you need it the most? There is a reason why most manufacturers make triggers heavier than need be. Make hammers, springs, firing pins, strikers a certain weight or strength. High performance parts usually push the envelope and may not have the useful life of the stock pieces. I wouldn't want to take the chance that that high performance part fails at the wrong time. Again, this is only my opinion and I am sure there will be plenty of people here that are going to tell you how wrong I am.

I modify guns that I don't rely on for self defense. Also, I use only revolvers for self defense. I practice a lot with my revolvers that I am confident enough in using them for self defense. Remember, revolvers are more reliable in some situations than a semi auto. For instance if you have to stick the gun into the perps gut before you pull the trigger. If the slide on a semi is pushed back even slightly the gun won't fire. Also, if you get a bad round, with a semi single action you now have to rack the slide and get a new round or cock the hammer. With a semi double action you can pull the trigger again but if the round doesn't go off the second time you still have to rack the slide to get a new round. If you carry the semi in a pocket there is the chance that lint and other foreign material can jam the gun. And what if you store a semi for many years in a drawer or some place without regular maintenance where the lubricant can dry out and affect the functioning of the gun. Most of these issues don't occur with a revolver. A revolver doesn't have a slide that if pushed back will stop it from firing. If you have a bad round, a second trigger pull brings up a new round every time. Revolvers are not as susceptible to foreign material jamming the mechanism. A revolver functions perfectly dry. And if all the legal situations you posted about are real, a revolver is about as low on the radar screen with the antis as you can get. All JMHO.

To me these are all advantages most semi fans don't think about or realize.

There are aftermarket upgrades that are basically improved OEM parts.  I have a couple of Glocks with extremely polished replacement triggers.  The triggers are still regulation for production class in competitions since the parts are the same as what you replaced.

http://glocktriggers.com/products/haley/

FAQ:

http://glocktriggers.com/faq/

MASSAD AYOOB discusses modifications in his book 'Deadly Force, understanding your right to self defense' and in his classes. He recommends reading the case of Santibanes vs Tomball, TX and keeping trigger pull above 5.5 lbs in a Glock for self defense.

Also found some interesting info/opinions here

https://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications

Good discussion.
Although Massad Ayoob is recognized as an expert in firearms for defense he is only one man and his opinion.  Would be good to hear others views, thoughts and experiences.

Realistically speaking no one really knows if this can/will be used against you.  It might be a non issue in one state/county and a big deal in another.  It's really up to the DA/attorney that is trying/suing you. 

Realistically speaking no one really knows if this can/will be used against you.  It might be a non issue in one state/county and a big deal in another.  It's really up to the DA/attorney that is trying/suing you.

Even if you aren't concerned with a prosecutor implying you might not have shot the other person had your finger not been on a ~3 lb "hair" trigger, you may be concerned that your mods might be less reliable than factory parts. 

If the gun fails to go "bang" in a moment of need, you might wish you'd left well enough alone.

All depends on your level of trust in the upgraded parts and workmanship.

I am not going to make any suggestions nor is anything that I say to be construed as legal advice.

SNIP

This.  That said, I had a chance to talk to my buddy about this last night.  Another disclaimer that it was about a 5-10 minute conversation over drinks. . .

Anyways, he mentioned that he has not heard a case where the prosecution "used" modifications on firearms to go after someone in a self defense situation.  With regards to modifications, his thoughts were that as long as the modifications to the firearms were legal that one SHOULD be ok.  Should of course being the operative word that like GZire mentioned, no one knows what kind of prosecutor one would draw, ulterior motives, etc.  Another consideration is that you would have to content with a jury that could be filled with all sorts of biases about guns and be swayed due to misconceptions or ignorance with regards to firearms. 

One situation where we discussed that he could envision could come into play were modifications that made the firearm less safe, such as a super light trigger to the point where it is unsafe.

We also discussed ammunition and that I often have read recommendations to utilize the same ammunition as the local PD for this type of legal question and considerations.  He had pretty much the same thoughts as modifications to firearms in that if it's legal, you should be ok. 

Anyways, one person's opinions on the matter.  I plan on discussing this with him again in the future and see if his thoughts change after he's had a chance to think about it some. 

For what it's worth, I think the "stock pistol" philosophy is the way to go for a true home defense firearm.
In a stressful situation, I doubt if you will notice the difference between a 5.5lb trigger and a 3.5lb trigger.
Along the same lines, I subscribe to the "standard HPD ammo" advice too.
Why open yourself up to any possible legal questions?
I was involved in a notorious murder case a few decades ago and I can tell you that a sharp lawyer WILL explore the technicalities of firearms AND ammunition involved.

For what it's worth, I think the "stock pistol" philosophy is the way to go for a true home defense firearm.
In a stressful situation, I doubt if you will notice the difference between a 5.5lb trigger and a 3.5lb trigger.
Along the same lines, I subscribe to the "standard HPD ammo" advice too.
Why open yourself up to any possible legal questions?
I was involved in a notorious murder case a few decades ago and I can tell you that a sharp lawyer WILL explore the technicalities of firearms AND ammunition involved.

Yep.  I would say pretty much to be expected.

On one or more of the firearms shows on The Outdoor Channel, they have this section at the end of each episode on the legal aspects of self defense. What do to if you find yourself in a post self-defense situation and other stuff.  Pretty interesting and if you sit down and think about it, mostly common sense.  Something about human tendency after a traumatic situation is to share and try to explain that event and that you have to be careful when you do that, especially if you just shot and killed someone in self defense.
 

I subscribe to the "standard HPD ammo" advice too.

What is the standard HPD ammo?

What is the standard HPD ammo?

...
standard pressure speer 124 gold dot hp.

...
standard pressure speer 124 gold dot hp.

That's my understanding of what they carry, or at least used to at one point.

One of my best friends is a cop.  I texted him this morning to ask, but he doesn't have his gun on him today.  Believe he's still on desk duty from a work injury.  I told him to try to get the firearms registration desk!    but he got assigned elsewhere. . .

I have a bunch of the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr standard pressure as well as some 147 gr.  I've looked for the +P stuff, but don't really see that too often on the shelves of the LGSs.   

I'm no attorney, and maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't get these arguments of upgraded/altered gun and ammo type can be used against you discussions.
As long as they're legal, what difference would it make ?

If the situation called for justifiable deadly force wouldn't deadly force be justifiable ?

Just be aware that, if I'm not mistaken, under hawaii law, if they do charge you with a felony the use of a semi-auto carries a longer mandatory minimum than the use of a revolver.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0706/HRS_0706-0660_0001.htm

I'm no attorney, and maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't get these arguments of upgraded/altered gun and ammo type can be used against you discussions.
As long as they're legal, what difference would it make ?

If the situation called for justifiable deadly force wouldn't deadly force be justifiable ?

Just be aware that, if I'm not mistaken, under hawaii law, if they do charge you with a felony the use of a semi-auto carries a longer mandatory minimum than the use of a revolver.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0706/HRS_0706-0660_0001.htm

Holy crap, you are right, that is stupid.

As for the ammo issue, I think that any attorney will try to find any angle they can to win their case which could include an argument of why the need to go to something bigger than the police use. There are of course good answers to those questions, but an attorney can still raise them.

Even if you aren't concerned with a prosecutor implying you might not have shot the other person had your finger not been on a ~3 lb "hair" trigger, you may be concerned that your mods might be less reliable than factory parts. 

If the gun fails to go "bang" in a moment of need, you might wish you'd left well enough alone.

All depends on your level of trust in the upgraded parts and workmanship.

Very good points.

It's also why many suggest not using reloads for SD purposes too.

I'm no attorney, and maybe I'm an idiot, but I don't get these arguments of upgraded/altered gun and ammo type can be used against you discussions.

1) As long as they're legal, what difference would it make ?

If the situation called for justifiable deadly force wouldn't deadly force be justifiable ?

2) Just be aware that, if I'm not mistaken, under hawaii law, if they do charge you with a felony the use of a semi-auto carries a longer mandatory minimum than the use of a revolver.
http://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/Vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0706/HRS_0706-0660_0001.htm

1) I assume that part was in reference to the discussion I had with my friend.  I didn't ask, but I took it to mean as long as you're not doing anything like modifying the sear to be auto type of "legal".  I assumed that you'd get in trouble for that on it's own as long as the use of deadly force was justified.  Though I can certainly see the fact that you illegally altered your firearm in how your actions are looked at and/or perceived.  I believe that if the use of deadly force was justified, (legal) modifications to your firearm shouldn't make a difference, but I'm not the attorney that could pursue such things.  I was just trying to get at if the argument/discussion of upgraded/altered gun having legal impacts was based on speculation and people spinning stories or based on actual facts/cases. 

2) Never looked that closely.

"Semiautomatic firearm" means any firearm that uses the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to extract a fired cartridge and chamber a fresh cartridge with each single pull of the trigger.

Makes me more interested in a lever action rifle.   

For my guns, I don't really modify them much, but that's more based on personal interest.  I just don't really have the desire to tinker with my guns that much.  I'd guess that a Geissele trigger on my AR would likely improve my shooting over the USGI trigger, but it's not like I'm chasing one-hole groups with my AR and 1x Aimpoint. 

Exactly what you said drck.
Lots of folks talk about what happens if you lighten the trigger or use XYZ ammo.
I was just agreeing with your attorney friend. Although I'm no attorney.
Legal mods meaning you didn't unload a full auto on the perp. Or shoot him with sawed-off shotgun, etc..

Check out some lever actions in .357 (if you have a .357 revolver) they're not much bigger than small pellet guns.