Quote from: CSaladino on November 21, 2011, 01:08:40 PM

murdered victim was on drugs!

Yes, Elderts was on drugs; we have yet to determine if he is a victim or an assailant, and whether a murder or a justified shooting is what took place.

True.  We also don't know if Deedy was under the influence of any drugs either since he refused a blood test.  I wonder why the tape is being withheld for so long.

Quote from: Cougar8045 on November 21, 2011, 01:43:18 PM

Quote from: CSaladino on November 21, 2011, 01:08:40 PM

murdered victim was on drugs!

Yes, Elderts was on drugs; we have yet to determine if he is a victim or an assailant, and whether a murder or a justified shooting is what took place.

True.  We also don't know if Deedy was under the influence of any drugs either since he refused a blood test.  I wonder why the tape is being withheld for so long.

The breathalyzer refusal has been debated at length on a number of news reports' comments section.  My theory is that he refused based on Massad Ayoob's advice to provide police with the rough sketch of what happened (He attacked me, I shot him), point out pertinent evidence, point out witnesses, and then tell them they'll have your full cooperation in 24 hours, after you've had a chance to speak with an attorney.  Also, aside from the much-ballyhooed breathalyzer refusal, I'll be shocked if HPD is so incompetent that they didn't obtain a warrant for a blood test, (which would make the error-prone breathalyzer a moot point) and I'm highly interested in the results.  From what I've gathered from the prosecution/defense lawyers, nothing is being released at least until the discovery phase is complete.  I want to see that video very badly, as well! 

Do they teach ayoob stuff in their training or are you just guessing. If you're just guessing that's quite a stretch imo

Do they teach ayoob stuff in their training or are you just guessing. If you're just guessing that's quite a stretch imo

I don't know what they teach at DSS, but Massad Ayoob is one of the foremost experts in training both civilians and law enforcement, so it's a virtual certainty that if his formal training didn't cover it, he would have encountered Mr. Ayoob's teachings on the internet.

You're giving them way too much credit. I know hpd that don't even know what kinda gun they carry and could care less about guns. Ive heard a federal policeman talk about how his co-workers didn't even know how to clear a gun, left the mag in and couldn't figure out why rounds kept coming out when he worked the slide. I've seen military armorers have negligent discharges because they didn't properly clear a pistol. I could go on and on. You can't assume just because someone carries that they know about stuff you know about. I'd be willing to bet there more gun owners who don't know who ayoob is then owners that do

You're giving them way too much credit. I know hpd that don't even know what kinda gun they carry and could care less about guns. Ive heard a federal policeman talk about how his co-workers didn't even know how to clear a gun, left the mag in and couldn't figure out why rounds kept coming out when he worked the slide. I've seen military armorers have negligent discharges because they didn't properly clear a pistol. I could go on and on. You can't assume just because someone carries that they know about stuff you know about. I'd be willing to bet there more gun owners who don't know who ayoob is then owners that do

You're right that a lot of gun owners don't know Massad Ayoob, a lot of cops and military are idiots, etc, but those cops that don't know which end the bullets come out of and the gun owners who haven't heard of Ayoob probably aren't carrying concealed when they're off-duty. I would respectfully submit that if a guy has a CCW, and hasn't done enough reading to have come across Ayoob, they're unprepared and need to get serious about the fact that they're walking around with a loaded gun strapped on.

Here's a link to what I was referring to: Massad Ayoob in Guns & Ammo

You're giving them way too much credit. I know hpd that don't even know what kinda gun they carry and could care less about guns. Ive heard a federal policeman talk about how his co-workers didn't even know how to clear a gun, left the mag in and couldn't figure out why rounds kept coming out when he worked the slide. I've seen military armorers have negligent discharges because they didn't properly clear a pistol. I could go on and on. You can't assume just because someone carries that they know about stuff you know about. I'd be willing to bet there more gun owners who don't know who ayoob is then owners that do

Who exactly is "them"

There are idiots everywhere. HPD has more than it's share of them as do all police forces and the military.

I don't think cougar was assuming anything. If you carry, you should know what to do and what NOT to do if you are involved in a shoot.

If you read his post then my post I think it's pretty clear who I'm referring to. Just because you think people should do something doesn't mean that they need to or will. I think every adult male should know how to change their cars oil, tire, etc. Does that mean they have to or should I assume they do? Not at all

Here's a link to what I was referring to: Massad Ayoob in Guns & Ammo

that's valuable advice.  thanks.

If you read his post then my post I think it's pretty clear who I'm referring to. Just because you think people should do something doesn't mean that they need to or will. I think every adult male should know how to change their cars oil, tire, etc. Does that mean they have to or should I assume they do? Not at all

By them I am guessing you were generalizing at LEO, but then you mention Military armorers as well.

I'm not going to keep this broken record going about what people should or shouldn't do or who assumes what. You can do what ever you like as can everyone else. It is up to the individual to be informed and educated.

 I definitely do not assume that HPD knows half of what they should. Most gun owners are not responsible or educated when it comes to the firearms. A little observation at Kokohead can prove that real quick.

DSS doesn't hire uneducated people. The police and military do.

Quote from: Cougar8045 on November 21, 2011, 07:33:15 PM

Here's a link to what I was referring to: Massad Ayoob in Guns & Ammo

that's valuable advice.  thanks.

Quote from: pj_benn on November 21, 2011, 07:11:07 PM

You're giving them way too much credit. I know hpd that don't even know what kinda gun they carry and could care less about guns. Ive heard a federal policeman talk about how his co-workers didn't even know how to clear a gun, left the mag in and couldn't figure out why rounds kept coming out when he worked the slide. I've seen military armorers have negligent discharges because they didn't properly clear a pistol. I could go on and on. You can't assume just because someone carries that they know about stuff you know about. I'd be willing to bet there more gun owners who don't know who ayoob is then owners that do

You're right that a lot of gun owners don't know Massad Ayoob, a lot of cops and military are idiots, etc, but those cops that don't know which end the bullets come out of and the gun owners who haven't heard of Ayoob probably aren't carrying concealed when they're off-duty. I would respectfully submit that if a guy has a CCW, and hasn't done enough reading to have come across Ayoob, they're unprepared and need to get serious about the fact that they're walking around with a loaded gun strapped on.

Here's a link to what I was referring to: Massad Ayoob in Guns & Ammo

I'm with pj on this one.  HPD is required to carry a lot of the time.  Many of them do not know firearms, nor are they really interested.  To them firearms are just something that comes along with the job and much like filling out some paperwork, they just tolerate them because they have to.

I would hope that the standards for the Fed is higher than HPD, but I've also heard that HPD's training goes beyond a lot of what mainland departments do.  Pretty scary when you think about the guys walking around in the mainland with badges and firearms.

Quote from: Cougar8045 on November 21, 2011, 07:33:15 PM

Quote from: pj_benn on November 21, 2011, 07:11:07 PM

You're giving them way too much credit. I know hpd that don't even know what kinda gun they carry and could care less about guns. Ive heard a federal policeman talk about how his co-workers didn't even know how to clear a gun, left the mag in and couldn't figure out why rounds kept coming out when he worked the slide. I've seen military armorers have negligent discharges because they didn't properly clear a pistol. I could go on and on. You can't assume just because someone carries that they know about stuff you know about. I'd be willing to bet there more gun owners who don't know who ayoob is then owners that do

You're right that a lot of gun owners don't know Massad Ayoob, a lot of cops and military are idiots, etc, but those cops that don't know which end the bullets come out of and the gun owners who haven't heard of Ayoob probably aren't carrying concealed when they're off-duty. I would respectfully submit that if a guy has a CCW, and hasn't done enough reading to have come across Ayoob, they're unprepared and need to get serious about the fact that they're walking around with a loaded gun strapped on.

Here's a link to what I was referring to: Massad Ayoob in Guns & Ammo

I'm with pj on this one.  HPD is required to carry a lot of the time.  Many of them do not know firearms, nor are they really interested.  To them firearms are just something that comes along with the job and much like filling out some paperwork, they just tolerate them because they have to.

I would hope that the standards for the Fed is higher than HPD, but I've also heard that HPD's training goes beyond a lot of what mainland departments do.  Pretty scary when you think about the guys walking around in the mainland with badges and firearms.

It's true enough that a lot of guys don't get the training they should.  All I'm saying is that Deedy refused the on-scene breathalyzer for one of two reasons: he was drunk, or he had been trained on what Massad Ayoob and many others teach, either at work or on his free time.  It could be either, but is assuming that a federal agent actually knew how to handle himself in the aftermath of a deadly force enounter so much more far-fetched than assuming that a federal agent decided to risk his career, life, and family in order to carry a firearm while drinking? 

While, its "massad ayoob", it's more - don't be a idiot and do what every single criminal defense attorney has told people since they existed lol. STFU and don't consent to searches.

Far fetched? No. From my exp I'd lean more towards that he had drinks in his system. Did a google to see if ayoob had anything specifics about breathalyzer. Couldn't find it. I did find forums discussing it where atleast 2 people who subscribe to ayoobs stuff say that they would do the breathalyzer, and nobody argued with them from what I could see.

Far fetched? No. From my exp I'd lean more towards that he had drinks in his system. Did a google to see if ayoob had anything specifics about breathalyzer. Couldn't find it. I did find forums discussing it where atleast 2 people who subscribe to ayoobs stuff say that they would do the breathalyzer, and nobody argued with them from what I could see.

This is a good discussion.  The more I research, the more I think I'm going to decline a breathalyzer if I'm ever involved in a deadly force encounter. 

...In all cases, exposing the sensor to any type of smoke or oxygen ion generator will produce false positive test results and inaccurate readings. This includes residual smoke in the lungs of a smoker and ambient smoke that may be present in the immediate area. Do not use an alcohol breath analyzer near any type of ion generator including popular air cleaners and central hvac electronic filtration systems.  Smokers must wait a minimum 8-10 minutes after smoking to use a breathalyzer to insure that all residual smoke is absent from the lungs...

...In conclusion, users of electronic alcohol breath analysis devices should not expect accuracy rates equivalent to precisely controlled laboratory results using flow meter or gas mass spectrometry equipment. Unexpected readings are almost always the result of user error, failure to follow device instructions, contamination of the sample by smoke or other environmental variable, failure to provide a sufficient breath sample or contamination of the gas sensor through misuse, abuse or absence of recommended cleaning maintenance.  Test results obtained under the many possible variables of field use are generally assumed to be approximate to actual and not correlated consecutively...

Here's the link to a scientific article about breathalyzers
Obviously, a false positive is going to be huge in a deadly force encounter, especially in the civil suit where the burden of proof is low to non-existant.  If you happened to be in a building with an HVAC system or an ionic air cleaner when you took the test, you're going to get really tired of hearing about how you were drunk at the scene, and really, really tired of writing checks every month for the rest of your life.

So i got a question kinda related.

If you ccw, are you required to step in and defuse situations, even though they are not particularly directed at you?

I know people in hawaii usually have the mind your own business kind of attitude.

So i got a question kinda related.

If you ccw, are you required to step in and defuse situations, even though they are not particularly directed at you?
I know people in hawaii usually have the mind your own business kind of attitude.

No. You are not REQUIRED to do anything. 

How the hell can they use those things as evidence?

How the hell can they use those things as evidence?

Good question.  For those reading this, I should put out the disclaimer that I am not a lawyer, and in no sense does anything I'm saying constitute legal advice.  You might save yourself a headache listening to me, or you might find yourself strapped to a table with a special IV while your family watches through a one-way mirror.  I'm just a dumb old sailor reading teh intarwebs, so if you're planning on taking anything I say as gospel truth, you're probably setting yourself up for failure!