wheres the supprorters of rail now (Read 147452 times)

eyeeatingfish

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2016, 01:01:20 AM »
you have a good point to which I have a rebuttal to your "reduced cars on the road" argument: Not to digress from my main points stated above but to reiterate a standpoint that I have taken and posted about previously in a different thread: I am willing of all the west side and central oahu inhabitants who are current vehicle owners and daily vehicle commuters, a large majority will not simply forfeit the utility, convenience, and freedom of their vehicles in order to add to their commute time, decrease the utility of convenience of their owned vehicles, and furthermore pay additional out of pocket costs to use the rail once it is completed. 

This could be something that would take time, people would have to get used to the idea of not having their car. That being said, over time I do think people will get used to a rail system. The ever increasing cost of parking, ever increasing traffic, increasing fuel prices, etc will make the rail more attractive. I would also contend that many will see a reduced commute time rather than an increased commute time as you suggest. Also that commute time can be used to do things such as study, read, sleep, crochet, etc. When I lived in Japan I had ditch my luxuries of driving everywhere I wanted and taking the train system. I didn't immediately like having to walk everywhere but I got used to it over time. I am not saying it will be an easy sell or that we will see instant results, but when it grows on people I think they will begin to accept and even like it.

Consider also the benefit of a possible reduction in drunk drivers. I can go home wasted without putting anyone in danger at a fraction the cost of a taxi.

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hypothetical but realistic example: I am a car owner and use it as a daily driver.  If i lived in millilani, for example, and all else remained the same, I would NEVER forfeit the utility and convenience of my already owned vehicle to commute to the rail station, which further adds to my commute time at a decreased convenience factor in order to pay $5/one way, or whatever ungodly amount they might start charging, in order to board the rail train to go to work everyday.  What if I have a hot date or dinner plans after work?  Or an emergency occurs and my (hypothetical) child needs to be picked up from school? I would be kicking myself in the ass saying "why did i take the rail today?  Why didn't I drive today?!?!"   I would be stuck in town with no options, except the rail, to get back to the millilani, where I would have to commute from the rail stop back to my home.

How did people live without cell phones 30 years ago? They managed. I would point back to my experiences in Japan to answer your question. They still face the same issues you raise but they decide to take the train. Ditto on your issue about national emergencies.
Now this is not to say everyone would sell all their cars. In Japan many families own 1 car and use it on occasions where a train just wouldn't work.

Sooner or later traffic and parking will be so bad that no one will want to drive. But at that point, building a rail system will be a lot harder and more expensive to build.

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Furthermore, what if I was a daily rail user, and the rails breaks down one day (much like the zip mobile broke down that one horrendous day of traffic), how the hell am I to get home in a timely and convenient fashion?  Bus? $80 uber ride? hell no...

How is this any different than when  fatality occurs or some guy with a crane on a truck takes out an overpass?

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This illustrates the situation that exists for many central and ewa/west side inhabitants who enjoy the convenience and freedom of their vehicles.  I am simply putting myself in the shoes of a millilani/ewa/westside inhabitant.

I live Kaneohe so I won't get any direct benefit, however I do believe that rush hour commute into town will be less for me given that I won't be merging into as much traffic on the town side. The bus system in Mililani is pretty decent, most residences do not have a long walk to a bus stop. They would have to catch a bus that goes down to a station along the rail line. It may be hard to imagine but it does end up making sense.

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The rail may have multiple benefits but IMO the drawbacks and hassles outweigh them by large margins, and their are zero direct benefits to a vast majority of Oahu's inhabitants (not even talking about non-Oahu inhabitants).

I personally could foresee this just being the beginning of a larger rail system, one that goes up through central Oahu and also serves Waikiki and UH.

GZire

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2016, 01:17:25 PM »
I have always kind of been on the fence on this issue. On the one hand I am sure there is waste left and right and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some corruption as well, but on the other hand I do think a rail system would serve the island well. Imagine if we tried to build this 20 years from now when we were more crowded.
Here's the kicker...........RAIL only works if it is crowded.  You need pretty much most of the ridership to live within 1/2 mile max of the support stations.  Once you pass this distance it's more feasible to run buses. 

All the buildup of housing in Kakaako............if you supported RAIL, then you support this even if you don't realize it.




HECO's Honolulu power generation facility has been deactivated and mothballed for the last couple of years. That would tell me that they are getting enough power from wind and PV to idle that plant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RAIL is supposed to have support plants, stations, maintenance facilities to support the new service.  The infrastructure as it is now will not support RAIL.

edster48

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2016, 02:01:45 PM »
It was 2% I believe however it was also mischaracterized. I cannot remember the exact details but the number had to do with the overall number of cars on the roads however opponents claimed it meant only a 2% reduction in traffic during rush hour. The study was used dishonestly or inaccurately by opponents. I will see if I can dig up the specifics of the issue.

I believe it was Prevedorous/ Cayetano that put the numbers forth, but I can't find evidence of a specific study.

There was another "study" of sorts, by a guy I now believe was Rep. McDermmot {sp?} I didn't know who he was then. My old employer was based in Kapolei, this guy did a door to door survey in the Kapolei/Ewa Beach area to ask who would actually use the rail if it was built. This was back when they were still trying to get the measure on the ballot. I happened to be in the shop when he stopped by to ask us. The conclusion was very interesting. Many people thought it was a good idea, but then said they wouldn't be using it, though they thought their neighbors would. I've forgotten the actual numbers he had, but they were well above 90% on the side of not using it. The only people that consistently said they would use it were people that were already taking the bus to work in town.

In any case, traffic is unlikely to be impacted by this to any significant extent.

This will be my last comment on the subject as arguing with you is like wiping my butt with a hoop, it never ends...
Always be yourself.
Unless you can be a pirate.
Then always be a pirate.

astroboy

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2016, 02:11:23 PM »
Under the Harris admin. the consulting firm hired by the city stated that BRT would be the best transit option for Honolulu. The firm found that BRT would be much more affordable to build and maintain than heavy rail and it would be a better fit with less disruption to our infrastructure. BRT would also be able to cover a wider area and provide more flexibility. The consulting firm under Mufi did an about face and advised building heavy rail that would service a narrow corridor that would include Waikiki, and UH Manoa. We now know that NONE of these areas will be covered with out spending a lot more money.  If I am not mistaken the same firm was hired by both admins.

Inspector

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2016, 02:38:33 PM »
For everyone that is interested in the timeline and history of our rail project:

http://fixoahu.blogspot.com/

Enjoy!!!
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

yurcarmeean

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2016, 10:16:23 PM »
This could be something that would take time, people would have to get used to the idea of not having their car. That being said, over time I do think people will get used to a rail system. The ever increasing cost of parking, ever increasing traffic, increasing fuel prices, etc will make the rail more attractive. I would also contend that many will see a reduced commute time rather than an increased commute time as you suggest. Also that commute time can be used to do things such as study, read, sleep, crochet, etc. When I lived in Japan I had ditch my luxuries of driving everywhere I wanted and taking the train system. I didn't immediately like having to walk everywhere but I got used to it over time. I am not saying it will be an easy sell or that we will see instant results, but when it grows on people I think they will begin to accept and even like it.

Consider also the benefit of a possible reduction in drunk drivers. I can go home wasted without putting anyone in danger at a fraction the cost of a taxi.

How did people live without cell phones 30 years ago? They managed. I would point back to my experiences in Japan to answer your question. They still face the same issues you raise but they decide to take the train. Ditto on your issue about national emergencies.
Now this is not to say everyone would sell all their cars. In Japan many families own 1 car and use it on occasions where a train just wouldn't work.

Sooner or later traffic and parking will be so bad that no one will want to drive. But at that point, building a rail system will be a lot harder and more expensive to build.

How is this any different than when  fatality occurs or some guy with a crane on a truck takes out an overpass?

I live Kaneohe so I won't get any direct benefit, however I do believe that rush hour commute into town will be less for me given that I won't be merging into as much traffic on the town side. The bus system in Mililani is pretty decent, most residences do not have a long walk to a bus stop. They would have to catch a bus that goes down to a station along the rail line. It may be hard to imagine but it does end up making sense.

I personally could foresee this just being the beginning of a larger rail system, one that goes up through central Oahu and also serves Waikiki and UH.

I am intrigued by your past living in Japan, which probably adds to your unwavering hope in seeing the rail succeed.  I just came back from a 1 week tour of Tokyo and surrounding areas, my first, loved it, never used the metro though, we traveled to the tourist spots by bus/motor coach, in comfort.  I very much want to go back as a tourist, i looked up living expenses in Japan earlier today to entertain the thought of moving there and working as an English teacher, let's just say, not gonna happen, at least for now, the high quality of living there comes at a hefty price in dollars and time. 

Anywho, the interconnected-ness of Japan's rail system was decades in the making, and it was the result I believe of necessity.  Tokyo itself is a very large metropolitan area.  Tokyo proper, I would venture to estimate, is probably larger than Oahu itself, with a much higher population and density.  Their rail system benefits from their way of life: they maintain extreme cleanliness and a grand sense of respect for public space, a level that nowhere in US could ever be compared to.  Their rail system benefits from this. 

However it is completely imprudent to assume that our rail system will be anywhere near as safe, clean, and free of vulgarians as Japan's. 

Oahu's infrastructure is rooted in roadways.  You are saying that the existence of the rail will somehow cause people to change behavior, particularly their use of vehicles, over a course of several decades.  This is so farfetched an idea.  If that was the case then some of the rail's budget should have went towards changing people's behavior today, like incentives to use the bus, or maybe even expanding the bus system, which as you've said, works well, I very much agree.  I have also suggested expansion of the bus system previously in another topic.  I think our bus system is good, now.  But if we invested just a fraction of the rail's cost, say $1 billion, the bus system could alleviate traffic more than the rail ever could.  Currently the my closest bus stop is a 15 minute walk from my house, literally up a hill, down a dirty roadway with a shoddy sidewalk, and through a strip mall (Salt Lake shopping center), and an up to 20 minute wait for my #3 bus just to get on it.  walking up that damn hill on my way home is a PITA albeit good exercise.  But, if there was a bus stop at the edge of my cul de sac, and if my #3 was "garaunteed" to pass by, with the same reliability of Tokyo's metro timing, every >15 minutes, I would gladly keep my Toyota Camry Hybrid in the garage and opt to use the bus.  But its not, and the #3 which services Kaimuki all the way Salt Lake (a 14 mile route one way) is ALWAYS packed with Salt Lakers who live in the Salt Lake's "corridor of condominiums."  If they added a mere 3 more buses to the #3 route during peak traffic times I would consider using the bus sometimes, but no, they stingy.  To compare, the #1 route which services mainly a large loop around downtown Honolulu is garaunteed to pass by any of its stops every 10 minutes, much more convenient and reliable. 

Most of today's taxpayers will not be here 30, 40 years from now to see the transformation, to see if there is a benefit or to see if their investment was a huge waste of money.  There are so many unanswered questions, so many what if's and maybe's that this project should have never been initiated.  A project of this magnitude should have taken a decade of analysis to prove that it would benefit Hawaii's society, that analysis never happened.

As I said, the questions, the if's and's and but's that were overlooked, that never succumbed to scientific dissertion is evidence that the decision was made by a few, and without proper analysis.  A successful project is not one that has half-assed beginnings that requires bandages over the next decades to make work.  Japan's rails weren't built half ass, they were carefully planned, every single expense. 

On a side note, interestingly the H3 costed $80 million per mile to construct (top speed 80 mph), and it has duality of purpose: to transport people quickly from East to West and, like the rest of the United State's vast interstate system, to the connect military bases.  The maglev bullet train in Japan costed $1 billion per mile to construct (regular speed ~260 mph).  So we are looking at a figure somewhere between $80 million to $1 billion per mile for the HART.  Which do you think will it end up being closer to? 





« Last Edit: April 11, 2016, 10:42:45 PM by yurcarmeean »
If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready.

eyeeatingfish

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #26 on: April 12, 2016, 01:25:29 AM »
Oahu's infrastructure is rooted in roadways.  You are saying that the existence of the rail will somehow cause people to change behavior, particularly their use of vehicles, over a course of several decades.  This is so farfetched an idea.  If that was the case then some of the rail's budget should have went towards changing people's behavior today, like incentives to use the bus, or maybe even expanding the bus system, which as you've said, works well, I very much agree.  I have also suggested expansion of the bus system previously in another topic.  I think our bus system is good, now.  But if we invested just a fraction of the rail's cost, say $1 billion, the bus system could alleviate traffic more than the rail ever could.  Currently the my closest bus stop is a 15 minute walk from my house, literally up a hill, down a dirty roadway with a shoddy sidewalk, and through a strip mall (Salt Lake shopping center), and an up to 20 minute wait for my #3 bus just to get on it.  walking up that damn hill on my way home is a PITA albeit good exercise.  But, if there was a bus stop at the edge of my cul de sac, and if my #3 was "garaunteed" to pass by, with the same reliability of Tokyo's metro timing, every >15 minutes, I would gladly keep my Toyota Camry Hybrid in the garage and opt to use the bus.  But its not, and the #3 which services Kaimuki all the way Salt Lake (a 14 mile route one way) is ALWAYS packed with Salt Lakers who live in the Salt Lake's "corridor of condominiums."  If they added a mere 3 more buses to the #3 route during peak traffic times I would consider using the bus sometimes, but no, they stingy.  To compare, the #1 route which services mainly a large loop around downtown Honolulu is garaunteed to pass by any of its stops every 10 minutes, much more convenient and reliable. 


We may have to agree to disagree.  Traffic will only get worse and the costs of commuting by car will only go up which will push people more and more to consider riding the train.

Like it or not, Oahu being "rooted in its roadways" is not something that is going to be feasible forever.

I am in favor of the rail system in the sense that Ido think the rail is necessary but I have many criticisms about the way it is being carried out.

hvybarrels

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #27 on: April 12, 2016, 01:44:29 AM »
Everywhere I lived with a train was awesome. I used it all the time. This, however, I will never use. It's a total scam.
I’m becoming clinically undepressed and thinking about beginning it all.

Rocky

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2016, 09:03:17 AM »
    We all know the rail is useless and simply a way to pay back big money political supporters.
Waste of money, literally no effect on traffic, financial drain on our kids.
Thanks and Congrats to Ernie Martin for STARTING to clean up the Rail "problem"  :thumbsup:

   Now if we can start nailing some of these POS's on extortion, we might be able to get some of that wasted money back.
Of course, they'll probably need to appropriate several million for analyst, legal teams, housing same etc... :crazy:

They've built so much already too much to tear down, I think they should finish it with out rail and train and turn it into a contra-flow  lane !  :geekdanc:

Option 2 to reduce future traffic is to stop people from moving here.  :wacko:  :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

   
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

Inspector

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2016, 09:22:46 AM »
I heard this morning on the news that HART is holding off opening the bids for the second half (stadium to Ala Moana) segment and stations. They did not say why. If they wait too long it will cost us even more because there will no longer be a smooth transition between general contractors and sub contractors when the first half ends and the second half starts. To me this is deceptive because HART does not want the public to hear the reality of the total cost of the project. The second half of the rail is going to be much more difficult and take longer to construct than the first half. Which means the second half will cost Honolulu tax payers more than the first half which is already over budget by more than a BILLION dollars.  :o

Don't be surprised if the rail project is stopped right at the stadium for the next 20 years.  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

ren

Deeds Not Words

GZire

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2016, 06:29:45 PM »
We may have to agree to disagree.  Traffic will only get worse and the costs of commuting by car will only go up which will push people more and more to consider riding the train.

Like it or not, Oahu being "rooted in its roadways" is not something that is going to be feasible forever.

I am in favor of the rail system in the sense that Ido think the rail is necessary but I have many criticisms about the way it is being carried out.


The rail line is fixed.  People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus.  They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination.  Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.

GZire

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2016, 06:32:28 PM »
I heard this morning on the news that HART is holding off opening the bids for the second half (stadium to Ala Moana) segment and stations. They did not say why. If they wait too long it will cost us even more because there will no longer be a smooth transition between general contractors and sub contractors when the first half ends and the second half starts. To me this is deceptive because HART does not want the public to hear the reality of the total cost of the project. The second half of the rail is going to be much more difficult and take longer to construct than the first half. Which means the second half will cost Honolulu tax payers more than the first half which is already over budget by more than a BILLION dollars.  :o

Don't be surprised if the rail project is stopped right at the stadium for the next 20 years.  :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:


There will not be any smooth transition from Kiewit to whoever wins the next segment of rail. 

The scuttlebutt has been for quite some time that Kiewit would not bid the next phase of the rail project.

Will the next part of rail cost more............probably just because you are getting into the more dense urban core than Kapolei and Waipahu.  Deceptive, I dunno about that.  If you want the price just take HARTs estimates and bump them up 50%+.

ren

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2016, 06:38:26 PM »
by the time they finish this rail project technology will move ahead and people will be using this...

Deeds Not Words

Jl808

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2016, 08:37:18 PM »

The rail line is fixed.  People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus.  They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination.  Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.

What I heard so long ago, once the rail is done, the bus routes will be re-routed to feed the rail.
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punaperson

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2016, 08:41:43 PM »
What I heard so long ago, once the rail is done, the bus routes will be re-routed to feed the rail.
You WILL take the train. You LIKE the train. The train is GOOD. You're THANKFUL for the politicians who built the train for you. You WILL take the train.

dafrtknocker

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2016, 09:04:06 PM »
If enough people don't use the rail, they'll just make H1 a "Toll Road", and only the people who are driving those evil gas operated vehicles will be punished! :shake:

yurcarmeean

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2016, 09:14:43 PM »
We may have to agree to disagree.

unfortunate! but ok

its not like we can take bets to see who is more correct 30 years from now....
wait... can we?
If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready.

MMM

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2016, 09:58:21 PM »
You WILL take the train. You LIKE the train. The train is GOOD. You're THANKFUL for the politicians who built the train for you. You WILL take the train.

Jedi mind trick?!   :shake:

eyeeatingfish

Re: wheres the supprorters of rail now
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2016, 02:10:00 AM »

The rail line is fixed.  People aren't going to catch a bus to catch a train to catch a bus.  They are going to catch a bus straight to their destination.  Unless your destination lies along the rail you realistically won't use it.

Not true, when I lived in Japan I had to take two trains. If it is designed well and runs smoothly it works. People just have to get over their laziness.