I grew up with guns - to me they are as ordinary (and extraordinary) as any other well made tool. I also hang out with a lot of liberals and sometimes events happen that just leave me scratching my head.

For example, I stopped by to visit some friends on the way back from my Buy Pistol And Go To Police Dept.day. I'm not fond at all of having to interact with any bureaucracy and the day in town was exhausting. When asked "how are you?" I replied that I was tired from navigating the state's permit system for buying guns. And, I kid you not, this is what they said:

"A gun? Why are you getting a gun? Do you need to shoot someone?"

I just barely kept my jaw from hitting the floor. These are otherwise quite intelligent, reasonable people who know that I'm not an aggressive person at all... and yet this was their knee-jerk reaction to the thought of me buying a firearm. I was just stunned. I replied something like "Uh, no. I've been a target shooter since I was young and I just enjoy shooting. Hawaii law just makes it a bit difficult to legally buy a firearm."

To which they replied "Good" and I let the issue drop since they obviously were uncomfortable talking about it.

I'm going to take the issue up with them at some point. We're friends and I want to make sure they aren't thinking I'm some monster because I like target shooting. Just kills me, though. The disconnect of logic was obvious as was the lack of any real experience.

But it got me thinking. For me, having grown up enjoying casting, reloading and shooting with my dad... the idea that firearms are only for killing people is as unreasonable as the idea that sex is only for procreation. For someone who has no experience with firearms, no interest in them or in hunting and no immediate safety concerns... they're just scary and so are people who deal with them.

Anyone have other experiences with people that we can use to figure out why people - not lobbyists or politicians - think gun control is a good idea? I'm looking for interactions with people more than I am general statements about policy if that's at all possible.

I also think that a fundamental difference between pro and anti-gun rights activists is the level of trust in authority and government. Ever since I was 5 and my dad was served a ticket for going 2mph over the speed limit (that is not a typo) with the whole family in the car on the way home from Gramma's on Christmas eve... I've had a hard time assuming that the local LE is innately worthy of trust and respect. (ABSOLUTELY no disrespect intended to LE officers! It was just that region's draconian policy to mandate strict enforcement of all laws period.) I also have trouble assuming that the government has my best interests at heart or is even capable of serving those best interests even if it wanted to. So obviously I'm going to be suspicious if they start trying to control access to weapons more. People who do trust the expertise and power of the government would naturally wonder why I'm so distrusting.

Another thing I'm looking for are relatively reasonable statistics, studies, or example that support the idea that decreased access to legal weapons directly relates to lower violent crime. Not so that we can merrily tear them apart and ridicule the people who believe them, but so that I can understand why they think they are correct from their own perspective. To me this is a critical first step in being able to have any effective conversations with gun control activists.

My initial searches for well stated arguments led me to this site: (http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~zj5j-gttl/guns.htm). Meh. Mediocre. A bit more fuzzy logic than stringent policy based on statistics... but enough to start trying to think like a gun control activists. Does anyone know of some good sites for understanding gun controllers from their own perspective?

Aloha,
C

Hey clshade,

I think this is an excellent subject, thanks for starting it. I will be interested to see if anyone can come up with any novel ideas. I hope you don't mind but I would like to give you my perspective on this.

Generally speaking I classify people regarding firearms in 3 different categories. Those of us who already know firearms, those of us who don't but whose minds are at least open enough to listen to us gun owners even though they are on the surface against guns and for gun control, and then there are those whose minds will never change no matter how many facts are presented to them that contradict how they "feel". "Feel" being the key word here.

When speaking with those willing to listen and do not argue or at least have some weak arguments I usually just cite Australia and England where guns were confiscated and gun related violence goes up. Also, I cite our own governments figures on states where concealed carry has been enacted and gun related violence goes down significantly. I also make sure they understand that when guns are confiscated that the criminals who own them do not have them confiscated and that the black market for guns (which is where criminals get their guns) continues to provide guns to criminals. But more than anything I enforce the fact that gun safety is always on the forefront of anyone thinking of ever buying, owning and shooting a gun for practice or even for fun. And that I believe that gun safety training is a requirement to buy a gun and that I agree with that. (Those of you who disagree with me can flame me all you want) And I further encourage them to take their kids to a gun safety class. I ask them what their children would do if they found a gun lying on the ground somewhere or in their friends house? I get a lot of ignorant answers but I usually push the what if it were their child's friends BB gun? Since BB guns are common in a lot of households. And I tell them I will pay for the safety class for their whole family if cost is a factor for them. No one has ever taken me up on the offer but I have had a few people (and I stress only a few) actually take a gun safety class from my encouragement. And they went on to purchase a gun.

When it comes to the die hard liberals I would say don't waste your time. I have two families, one is ultra conservative and religious (They all own guns) and the other is liberal and ultra liberal and quasi religious. I am an independent and pull from both sides and I am not religious. I have actually spent weeks in e-mail discussions back and forth with 2 different family members. One is a liberal and the other ultra liberal. Wasting literally hundreds of hours trying to discuss this subject with them. And I can honestly say that you cannot change their minds nor present a good argument against their "feelings". Because their reasons are based on one "fact or feeling" which is if you reduce the number of guns in the hands of the people and stop selling guns to the public then the criminals will no longer have guns to use. Fewer guns available means less gun related crimes. Also, they believe that the few accidental shootings every year by legal gun owners are so horrendous that it is worth taking away everybody's guns so this will never happen again. And no matter how they are faced with cold hard facts they will not believe anything you tell them because they are so entrenched with the government providing protection that you will not even scratch the surface with them. As a matter of fact you can easily alienate them and they could stop being your friend. The clever ones will ask you why you don't feel so strongly about a child being killed accidentally that you still feel the need to own a gun? In other words if you don't get rid of your gun because a child was accidentally killed then you don't care about children and you become the bad person in their eyes. They will cite that if that gun that killed that child had been confiscated that child will be alive today. It is hard to argue against someone who feels one life is more important than the thousands that are saved every year by guns. They will not believe you. My cousin who is the ultra liberal even refused to believe that as many as 60% (or even higher) of the residents in his upscale apartment complex by the water in CA own guns. His father (another ultra liberal) even owns guns and admits to being a hypocrite as he is against gun ownership. But he refuses to relinquish ownership of his guns and keeps a loaded pistol by his bed. He believes in gun control but refuses to believe they will be confiscated. I called him ignorant and he did not deny it. They are both very typical CA liberals. They vote with their hearts and not their minds. They feel they are "progressive" in their thinking and will not argue with facts nor logic. Except their own brand of logic which is their feelings. You cannot win an argument against ones feelings. If you can then you are a much better man than I am. JMHO

I converted someone! It was awesome.

I converted someone! It was awesome.

Her girlfriend didn't get mad?

Quote from: hvybarrels on November 27, 2011, 11:37:55 PM

I converted someone! It was awesome.

Her girlfriend didn't get mad?

Haha!

You're right. Should have converted two at the same time.

Gun Facts - http://gunfacts.info/
Guncite - http://www.guncite.com/

Oooo, nice links.

I also found this one in my recent travels: http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp

If you want Facts on crimes committed by CCW permitees in Texas, go here:  http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/administration/crime_records/chl/convrates.htm

Tell you how much Better CCW permittees are compared to "regular" folks.

Another analogy you can use is Automobiles vs firearms. 

Given the regulations on firearms and how much Less crimes are committed by gun owners.

Suggest to your friends that the SAME Rules and Reg should apply to cars, BECAUSE

cars kill people More than guns   See what they say to that.

I've done it Many times and have driven(pun intended) people Nuts because because of their history or mental state of mind,

they woud not qualify to own a gun.

As long as you maintain your "cool" you can get "them" to loose it.  Then tell them you can see why they think like the way they do,

because they are unstable mentally and THEY are the ones that actually would shoot someone.  Then tell them that you will  report their

mental instability to the Police.  See what they say then.  Have Fun.

Did you know Art Ong was anti-gun?  He was one of those people
You were describing. I used to get lectured and sermoned by him
On why I needed guns for. Then his friend took him shooting. Then
He switched from automobile accessories to firearms!!!