I’m considering a gun trust mainly to keep HPD’s hands off my firearms when I pass and to make it easier for my wife, who will be executor, to legally dispose of the guns. My estate lawyer told me that HPD can’t touch the guns because they are owned by the trust. Called HPD and those losers are clueless. They danced around the subject but never answered the question; same with the C&C legal yoyo’s. Once thing I did get from both entities is that they don’t seem to like the gun trust since it takes most of their powers away when it comes to the disposal of the collection. I do have to notify HPD that the trust is in effect and provide a copy of the letter once it’s registered with the state. I know there’s someone here who is knowledgeable about gun trusts here in the PRH and am soliciting any advice or knowledge. It’s not that I don’t trust my lawyer since he’s one of the prominent trust lawyers in the state but would just like to get other opinion’s…… Thanks!

P.S. another reason for the gun trust is to keep my wife off the RAP BACK and the hassle of transferring the firearms to both our names. She has been the handgun class and has the declaration of successful completion but would rather bypass all that horse crap. I also have a FFL dealer friend of mine in Fairbanks, AK who is willing to help her also.

I was under the impression that All Gun Trust members now have to go through the background check process.

I’m considering a gun trust mainly to keep HPD’s hands off my firearms when I pass and to make it easier for my wife, who will be executor, to legally dispose of the guns. My estate lawyer told me that HPD can’t touch the guns because they are owned by the trust. Called HPD and those losers are clueless. They danced around the subject but never answered the question; same with the C&C legal yoyo’s. Once thing I did get from both entities is that they don’t seem to like the gun trust since it takes most of their powers away when it comes to the disposal of the collection. I do have to notify HPD that the trust is in effect and provide a copy of the letter once it’s registered with the state. I know there’s someone here who is knowledgeable about gun trusts here in the PRH and am soliciting any advice or knowledge. It’s not that I don’t trust my lawyer since he’s one of the prominent trust lawyers in the state but would just like to get other opinion’s…… Thanks!

P.S. another reason for the gun trust is to keep my wife off the RAP BACK and the hassle of transferring the firearms to both our names. She has been the handgun class and has the declaration of successful completion but would rather bypass all that horse crap. I also have a FFL dealer friend of mine in Fairbanks, AK who is willing to help her also.

Did you change your mind about leaving the country?

I was under the impression that All Gun Trust members now have to go through the background check process.

That's one of my questions but the HPD weenies don't seem to want to answer. Would like to see the law that would direct that all members have to go thru a background check. my question is how can a "trust" got thru the checks? Does the executor have to go thru the checks? I can see a beneficiary but the executors role is solely to dispose of the firearms. Out of state is no problem since I could care less what the PRH wants as long as it goes thru an FFL. You see, I've asked my friend in Alaska and my estate will pay for him to come to Hawaii, pack up the guns and ship them to Alaska where he will sell them for my wife. I would roll over in my grave if I knew HPD got the guns. I doubt they would be destroyed. More than likely they would be "distributed" to HPD weezers if they want them (another friend of mine is a retired HPD Major who told me he saw that happen time and time again when they had to confiscate a collection after the gun owner passed). No way in hell will that happen to mine!

Did you change your mind about leaving the country?

no not really. we live in Japan for about 3 months, then here for 6, then Japan for 3 (mainly due to immigration policies). We have an apartment in Minami Azabu that we stay in while we are there. One of my three trap guns resides in my wife's brother's house (he's a Tokyo MPD detective). I pick it up when I want to shoot trap in Chiba prefecture. I'm Licensed to have a shotgun and rifle but I feel better when they are kept in his safe, especially when I'm not there......

That's one of my questions but the HPD weenies don't seem to want to answer. Would like to see the law that would direct that all members have to go thru a background check. my question is how can a "trust" got thru the checks? Does the executor have to go thru the checks? I can see a beneficiary but the executors role is solely to dispose of the firearms. Out of state is no problem since I could care less what the PRH wants as long as it goes thru an FFL. You see, I've asked my friend in Alaska and my estate will pay for him to come to Hawaii, pack up the guns and ship them to Alaska where he will sell them for my wife. I would roll over in my grave if I knew HPD got the guns. I doubt they would be destroyed. More than likely they would be "distributed" to HPD weezers if they want them (another friend of mine is a retired HPD Major who told me he saw that happen time and time again when they had to confiscate a collection after the gun owner passed). No way in hell will that happen to mine!

Why would he come here to pack them, ship and then sell them, She could just send them to him.

Why would he come here to pack them, ship and then sell them, She could just send them to him.

this may sound like an excuse but she's from Japan and has no idea what to do. Tried to explain everything to her but I can tell it's no making much sense to her. This friend and I have been like brothers from a different mother for over 45 years (we served in 'Nam together with the brown water Navy) and have remained best of friends all these years. She asked if he could come here to take care of things with my oldest daughter in case something happens and I'll feel more comfortable if I take this burden off of her and let her and my daughter take care of more pressing business with the estate. I've already built 2 shipment crates which will mean all she has to do is purchase gun socks. He'll pack them up and ship them to AK where they will be really appreciated (by the way, he's a trooper). Hope that gives you an idea of why I'm doing what I'm doing.......

this may sound like an excuse but she's from Japan and has no idea what to do. Tried to explain everything to her but I can tell it's no making much sense to her. This friend and I have been like brothers from a different mother for over 45 years (we served in 'Nam together with the brown water Navy) and have remained best of friends all these years. She asked if he could come here to take care of things with my oldest daughter in case something happens and I'll feel more comfortable if I take this burden off of her and let her and my daughter take care of more pressing business with the estate. I've already built 2 shipment crates which will mean all she has to do is purchase gun socks. He'll pack them up and ship them to AK where they will be really appreciated (by the way, he's a trooper). Hope that gives you an idea of why I'm doing what I'm doing.......

Another question, If your not planing on letting anyone inherit them, Why not sell them now and enjoy the money

That's one of my questions but the HPD weenies don't seem to want to answer. Would like to see the law that would direct that all members have to go thru a background check. my question is how can a "trust" got thru the checks? Does the executor have to go thru the checks? I can see a beneficiary but the executors role is solely to dispose of the firearms. Out of state is no problem since I could care less what the PRH wants as long as it goes thru an FFL. You see, I've asked my friend in Alaska and my estate will pay for him to come to Hawaii, pack up the guns and ship them to Alaska where he will sell them for my wife. I would roll over in my grave if I knew HPD got the guns. I doubt they would be destroyed. More than likely they would be "distributed" to HPD weezers if they want them (another friend of mine is a retired HPD Major who told me he saw that happen time and time again when they had to confiscate a collection after the gun owner passed). No way in hell will that happen to mine!

I recall an article form some time ago where an HPD officer was fired for taking guns that were being turned into the department. I don't think anyone is allowed to take, purchase, etc any guns turned into the department. Remember that instead of selling the old S&W guns they destroyed them all.

I talked to someone at Security Equipment one time about a similar issue and how complicated it was just to add my wife to all of my guns. Would have to get permits for her to have all of them then bring them all in and register in both names then if one of us died the other would have to come in get permits again to re-register in just their name. I had broached the trust issue but cannot remember the specifics. I believe the trustee has to be allowed to own firearms but not sure. I think the bottom line is that the law doesn't specify anything about guns in trust so HPD is left trying to reconcile a legal quandary that doesn't really have an answer. Property can go in a trust but gun law is mute on guns owned by a trust.

The only parallel I can think of is a private company that owns firearms as part of their business. Say an armed security guard company. I am sure their guns are registered so maybe the answer lies in how these types of businesses purchase, register, and transfer ownership of their guns.

I am very interested in the answer too because I am in a similar position. My wife is from Japan and doesn't have much interest in firearms (hoping that changes) but I want my guns to go to my kids. Well at least the custom .300 win mag my dad had made I want to be passed along.

I recall an article form some time ago where an HPD officer was fired for taking guns that were being turned into the department. I don't think anyone is allowed to take, purchase, etc any guns turned into the department. Remember that instead of selling the old S&W guns they destroyed them all.

I talked to someone at Security Equipment one time about a similar issue and how complicated it was just to add my wife to all of my guns. Would have to get permits for her to have all of them then bring them all in and register in both names then if one of us died the other would have to come in get permits again to re-register in just their name. I had broached the trust issue but cannot remember the specifics. I believe the trustee has to be allowed to own firearms but not sure. I think the bottom line is that the law doesn't specify anything about guns in trust so HPD is left trying to reconcile a legal quandary that doesn't really have an answer. Property can go in a trust but gun law is mute on guns owned by a trust.

The only parallel I can think of is a private company that owns firearms as part of their business. Say an armed security guard company. I am sure their guns are registered so maybe the answer lies in how these types of businesses purchase, register, and transfer ownership of their guns.

I am very interested in the answer too because I am in a similar position. My wife is from Japan and doesn't have much interest in firearms (hoping that changes) but I want my guns to go to my kids. Well at least the custom .300 win mag my dad had made I want to be passed along.

Before beginning employment as a guard or in a guard capacity, in addition to the classroom instruction required by this section, guards and individuals acting in a guard capacity who carry a firearm or other weapon, including but not limited to an electric gun as defined in section 134-1, while on-duty in a guard capacity shall possess a valid permit to acquire the ownership of a firearm issued by county police pursuant to section 134-2 and shall satisfy the requirements of section 134-2(g).


Hawaii Revised Statutes Chapter 463-Private Detective & Guards 0112
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&ved=0ahUKEwiY1qKyucfOAhVDKGMKHS1JCe84ChAWCDkwBQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffiles.hawaii.gov%2Fdcca%2Fpvl%2Fpvl%2Fhrs%2Fhrs_pvl_463.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEysgdwv14vP3vKNJuwL7rU74w3-Q&sig2=s5uggssgl8WTjyv6j-8ekA

So the answer to your last question is, every person employed who carries firearms or other weapons goes through the same permit process as any firearm purchaser.

Before beginning employment as a guard or in a guard capacity, in addition to the classroom instruction required by this section, guards and individuals acting in a guard capacity who carry a firearm or other weapon, including but not limited to an electric gun as defined in section 134-1, while on-duty in a guard capacity shall possess a valid permit to acquire the ownership of a firearm issued by county police pursuant to section 134-2 and shall satisfy the requirements of section 134-2(g).

So the answer to your last question is, every person employed who carries firearms or other weapons goes through the same permit process as any firearm purchaser.

I am referring to the ownership of the firearm, not the possession. A trust is an entity as opposed to an individual person. So the registration of a firearm to a trust may behave similarly to the way a firearm is registered to a business. That may hold the key to the poster's original question.

I am referring to the ownership of the firearm, not the possession. A trust is an entity as opposed to an individual person. So the registration of a firearm to a trust may behave similarly to the way a firearm is registered to a business. That may hold the key to the poster's original question.

For handguns, there is no difference between ownership and possession unless the owner remains beside you the whole time you have control of it.  I'm going to say if they are going to do that, they probably have no reason to let you have possession.

So, when my boss, trust, whoever hands me a handgun and is no longer in the same room, I am required to have gone through the same hoops as if the gun was being transferred to me.

Simple.

For handguns, there is no difference between ownership and possession unless the owner remains beside you the whole time you have control of it.  I'm going to say if they are going to do that, they probably have no reason to let you have possession.

So, when my boss, trust, whoever hands me a handgun and is no longer in the same room, I am required to have gone through the same hoops as if the gun was being transferred to me.

Simple.

True, but the question I am addressing is also about how the firearm is registered and transferred. Regardless of who has possession at a certain time, the gun is registered to a certain person or entity. It would seem that guns registered to a business would behave similar to guns registered to a trust. Maybe an FFL would know the question since gun stores have to register guns they are going to sell.

This does bring up an odd question. Since you cannot let someone borrow a pistol, if your guns are in a trust and you take them the range, are you in violation? A dumb technicality I know, but doesn't mean the government wouldn't try to exploit it.

Mrgaf,
On one of the AM stations there is a radio show called backyard estate planning where people call in and he answers estate and trust questions. He sounds knowledgeable and it would be free! He might do free consultations but I cannot recall.

I have been thinking about other Trust issues as well. Since trusts can protect assets if you get sued sometimes I thought why not put the house in one. Might lose the residence tax break though?

True, but the question I am addressing is also about how the firearm is registered and transferred. Regardless of who has possession at a certain time, the gun is registered to a certain person or entity. It would seem that guns registered to a business would behave similar to guns registered to a trust. Maybe an FFL would know the question since gun stores have to register guns they are going to sell.

This does bring up an odd question. Since you cannot let someone borrow a pistol, if your guns are in a trust and you take them the range, are you in violation? A dumb technicality I know, but doesn't mean the government wouldn't try to exploit it.

Mrgaf,
On one of the AM stations there is a radio show called backyard estate planning where people call in and he answers estate and trust questions. He sounds knowledgeable and it would be free! He might do free consultations but I cannot recall.

I have been thinking about other Trust issues as well. Since trusts can protect assets if you get sued sometimes I thought why not put the house in one. Might lose the residence tax break though?

Yup that's Rowen Young and he's my trust lawyer. He's working it as well....tough guy and really smart...

Yup that's Rowen Young and he's my trust lawyer. He's working it as well....tough guy and really smart...

I learned a lot form that guy.

I don't have any knowledge about gun trusts but I know a thing or two about trusts in general that may be helpful in understanding how Trusts are used and how they work.

Trusts are commonly used as vehicles to administer the assets of an estate during the life of the trust’s creator (i.e., Settlor) and after the Settlor dies.  A trust is not an entity and cannot own property as a technical matter; it is a fiduciary relationship that is more akin to an agreement by one or more persons to carry out the directives of the trust. The person or persons who undertake(s) the duty is commonly called the Trustee(s). Thus, you have a Settlor who creates the trust (often called a Trustor) which identifies the beneficiaries of the trust and the persons nominated to serve as trustee.  The trustee has a fiduciary obligation to the  beneficiaries and can be held personally liable for breaching that duty.  The beneficiary is customarily the Settlor and once the Settlor dies or some event occurs, the contingent beneficiaries identified in the trust.  A trustee may be a live person or an entity such as a corporation. When a settlor transfers ownership interest in property to a trust, as a technical matter, he/she  transfers the interest to the trustee, not the trust. Thus, if a Settlor Jane Doe wants to convey her ownership interest in real property to her trust, the transfer is made to “Joe Blow, Trustee of the Jane Doe Trust.” When a bank account is opened for the trust, the account holder is identified as “Joe Blow, Trustee of the Jane Doe Trust”, and not “Jane Doe Trust”.

Hawaii law requires registration of firearms for ownership (HRS §134-2(a)) and possession (HRS §134-4(b)) since one can possess a firearm but not own it.  When a trust takes ownership of a firearm, it is actually taking ownership (and usually possession) through “Joe Blow, Trustee of the Jane Doe Trust”.  Since Hawaii gun registration laws require each owner of a firearm to be registered, Joe Blow must have a permit to possess the firearm.  If Joe Blow is replaced by a successor Trustee, the successor trustee must also be permitted to own (and possess) the firearm.

I would venture to guess that if you have a gun trust and transfer ownership and/or possession of a firearm to the trust, the gun trust’s trustee must be permitted to own and/or possess the firearm. Each successor trustee must also be permitted to own and/or possess the hand gun.

I hope I made things clear as mud.

~F

True, but the question I am addressing is also about how the firearm is registered and transferred. Regardless of who has possession at a certain time, the gun is registered to a certain person or entity. It would seem that guns registered to a business would behave similar to guns registered to a trust. Maybe an FFL would know the question since gun stores have to register guns they are going to sell.

This does bring up an odd question. Since you cannot let someone borrow a pistol, if your guns are in a trust and you take them the range, are you in violation? A dumb technicality I know, but doesn't mean the government wouldn't try to exploit it.

Mrgaf,
On one of the AM stations there is a radio show called backyard estate planning where people call in and he answers estate and trust questions. He sounds knowledgeable and it would be free! He might do free consultations but I cannot recall.

I have been thinking about other Trust issues as well. Since trusts can protect assets if you get sued sometimes I thought why not put the house in one. Might lose the residence tax break though?

Yup, Rowan Young....he's my estate attorney. Real great guy who has more brains in his feet than I have in my head hahahaha! Seriously he's working on it from his end as well since he's more than likely got "contacts" in the PRH AG office, judiciary and C&C losers, etc etc. he suggested that I ask here also....

My homes here in Hawaii are in the trust so no prob there. Rowan said nothing is lost, everything to gain by putting the homes in the trust. Only prob is my property in Japan cannot fall under the trust. They don't recognize it since they have their inhertance tax, which is outrageous, that guts the estate property.

I learned a lot form that guy.

Yup that's what I'm beginning to think....might be the best way is for plan B, my FFL buddy in AK comes over to ship them out of the PRH to his place of business, sell them with a commission for himself (he said BS he won't take anything but I told him I'd haunt his ass if he doesn't) and the rest to my wife. Yes I trust him completely. Spoke with him last night and he said he'll pay his own way to Hawaii. Said he'd want to have a few beers with me....just saying... Also said he'll tell HPD firearms squat about them being shipped out to AK, said none of their business any way......

I don't have any knowledge about gun trusts but I know a thing or two about trusts in general that may be helpful in understanding how Trusts are used and how they work.

Trusts are commonly used as vehicles to administer the assets of an estate during the life of the trust’s creator (i.e., Settlor) and after the Settlor dies.  A trust is not an entity and cannot own property as a technical matter; it is a fiduciary relationship that is more akin to an agreement by one or more persons to carry out the directives of the trust. The person or persons who undertake(s) the duty is commonly called the Trustee(s). Thus, you have a Settlor who creates the trust (often called a Trustor) which identifies the beneficiaries of the trust and the persons nominated to serve as trustee.  The trustee has a fiduciary obligation to the  beneficiaries and can be held personally liable for breaching that duty.  The beneficiary is customarily the Settlor and once the Settlor dies or some event occurs, the contingent beneficiaries identified in the trust.  A trustee may be a live person or an entity such as a corporation. When a settlor transfers ownership interest in property to a trust, as a technical matter, he/she  transfers the interest to the trustee, not the trust. Thus, if a Settlor Jane Doe wants to convey her ownership interest in real property to her trust, the transfer is made to “Joe Blow, Trustee of the Jane Doe Trust.” When a bank account is opened for the trust, the account holder is identified as “Joe Blow, Trustee of the Jane Doe Trust”, and not “Jane Doe Trust”.

Hawaii law requires registration of firearms for ownership (HRS §134-2(a)) and possession (HRS §134-4(b)) since one can possess a firearm but not own it.  When a trust takes ownership of a firearm, it is actually taking ownership (and usually possession) through “Joe Blow, Trustee of the Jane Doe Trust”.  Since Hawaii gun registration laws require each owner of a firearm to be registered, Joe Blow must have a permit to possess the firearm.  If Joe Blow is replaced by a successor Trustee, the successor trustee must also be permitted to own (and possess) the firearm.

I would venture to guess that if you have a gun trust and transfer ownership and/or possession of a firearm to the trust, the gun trust’s trustee must be permitted to own and/or possess the firearm. Each successor trustee must also be permitted to own and/or possess the hand gun.

I hope I made things clear as mud.

~F

I spoke to a friend who is more of a gun enthusiast that me and he confirmed some of what you say. It seems that legal ownership and firearm registration are two separate things. So while a Trust may be in charge of the firearm, the registration doesn't care who is the owner legally speaking. He explained that even when a gun store goes to register the firearms, even though they are owned by the business, they are still registered in a person's name. Therefore he thought that putting guns in a trust was extra work that served no purpose, at least not  for the original question. It could serve a purpose of ensuring how the firearms are distributed after death though, similar to a will.

Yup that's what I'm beginning to think....might be the best way is for plan B, my FFL buddy in AK comes over to ship them out of the PRH to his place of business, sell them with a commission for himself (he said BS he won't take anything but I told him I'd haunt his ass if he doesn't) and the rest to my wife. Yes I trust him completely. Spoke with him last night and he said he'll pay his own way to Hawaii. Said he'd want to have a few beers with me....just saying... Also said he'll tell HPD firearms squat about them being shipped out to AK, said none of their business any way......

This is beginning to sound a little morbid, hope you aren't planning on croaking anytime soon.

How is Rowen Young though? Reasonable prices, helpful?