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On the contrary, people who think that firearms should only be owned by the govt. are the most unintelligible, ignorant, and naive compared to firearms owners.

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The left has consistently portrayed firearm owners as unintelligent, inarticulate, and/or uneducated.

My experience has been contrary to such portrayals, and regardless of socio-economic categorizations, I personally believe that the ownership of firearms (and support of the 2nd Amendment) transcends any attempts from the left to diminish or repress our constitutional rights to keep and to bear arms.

I know of contractors, physicians, teachers, dentists, attorneys, architects, engineers, medical technicians, politicians, and consultants who own and support ownership of firearms.

I just felt compelled to support the silent minority (majority?), and provide a forum to more openly discuss this issue.

Feel free to chime in, as you deem necessary/appropriate.

61 guests and 19 Members currently online.

Sack the fuck up, take a position, and be prepared to defend such position. 

One of the biggest problems with the firearm debate is that both sides have turned the issue into an US versus THEM.

Maybe one day you guys will figure out that the debate is actually about firearms and it ISN'T about Republicans versus Democrats, nor is it about right versus left, nor is it about conservatives versus liberals, nor is it about race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, et cetera.

If you're looking for people to support your belief that rights under the 2nd shall not be infringed, then maybe you should stop alienating other people based purely on their stances on other, non-firearm issues.

Yes, there are Democrat gun owners, gay firearm owners, and even "Liberal" gun owners.  But to say to them, "YOU can't be one of US," is just stupid.

NOTE:  i edited this post to include quotations from new guy's prior posts

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I would ask why do the groups you singled out constantly and viciously attack the rights of all citizens to be armed, including themselves?

How do we get the left gun owners to value their rights to armed self defense and gun ownership rights over their pre-existing desire to strip those same rights?

I would ask why do the groups you singled out constantly and viciously attack the rights of all citizens to be armed, including themselves?

How do we get the left gun owners to value their rights to armed self defense and gun ownership rights over their pre-existing desire to strip those same rights?

Being a democrat or on the left and being anti-gun are not synonymous, that is the first thing we need to recognize. A liberal can be pro gun.

Personally I think we need to engage them with facts in a civil manner. I realize this does not always work but I haven't seen a method that proves more successful at this point. Alienating them is probably the worst step we can take.

Some we never will convince. For the rest, we have to beat the propaganda campaign. On top of facts some good emotional arguments or anecdotes would be in order.

At the meeting with Espero, the anti-gun lady who worked for the Navy commented that "there are no scholarly types here who can comment on the law being discussed" (paraphrased).

She was quickly rebutted by another young woman who actually holds two degrees.  I'm 100% sure there are other people in the audience who holds advanced degrees who didn't chime in.

Someone mentioned that they overheard one of the 2a-neutral teacher who was there say something like "I didn't know the pro-2a people were so well informed and educated."

One word:  emotions.

The anti-gun, anti-2A supporters are responding to emotional pleas and calls to "do something to stop this epidemic of gun violence."  "No other developed country in the world has these kinds of mass shootings."

It's difficult to combat a "feeling" with logic, facts, and historical proof.  It's always difficult to change someone's opinion once they are convinced the anti-gun stance is correct.  If they could be swayed to accept guns as useful tools and part of an enjoyable activity/sport BEFORE they develop negative opinions, the anti-gun groups would see much less support.  Of course, that will never happen as long as the media pushes anti-gun rhetoric to keep the controversy fresh and in our faces.

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that's why I support term limits.
F*ckin elitism.
They forget they were elected by us to serve.

In general, the anti-gun folks that I come across know little to nothing about guns.  Even worse, many have their views and opinions shaped by what they've seen on TV, video games, etc.  They are essentially ignorant of many of the truths and facts behind guns and generally are ok with their ignorance.  They know what they know and don't confuse them with the facts.  Many of these people are the wives/SO of shooter friends.  They often go on and on about "common sense gun control" and "we have to do something with the gun problem that we have in America" and that "why should a civilian have to own a rifle that can shoot down an airplane".  Well, I've embellished a little there, but that's kind of the point of the stuff that these ignorant people will believe and end up parroting.  Super frustrating.

Yeah, I will try to talk some sense into them.  Offer to take them to the range to see that it's safe and that the recoil from an AR15 won't blow them off their feet. 

Like mentioned before, a lot of it has to do with emotion.  It's an irrational fear of guns and not something that is easily swayed.  Sort of reminds me of how the uneducated in poor/slummy parts of the world is susceptible to all sorts of propaganda.  Same thing with myths about guns, firearms owners, etc.  On top of that, those who are anti-gun seem to be able to spew all sorts of myths and inaccurate to just false "facts" about guns, while the pro-2A people are constrained to facts, truths, etc. 

Many times, it boils down to how to you convince an ignorant person that they are ignorant.   

that's why I support term limits.
F*ckin elitism.
They forget they were elected by us to serve.

That's a completely different topic, but I totally agree.

Just a quick one and then 

Why is it that in election years, congress magically figure out the budget ahead of time and on non-election years, they always either go down to the wire or need continuing resolutions? 

There should be a way that we get to vote on their pay increases, benefits, etc. 

Letting the rats guard the cheese. 

That's a completely different topic, but I totally agree.

Just a quick one and then 

Why is it that in election years, congress magically figure out the budget ahead of time and on non-election years, they always either go down to the wire or need continuing resolutions? 

There should be a way that we get to vote on their pay increases, benefits, etc. 

Letting the rats guard the cheese.

Simple fact is, the public has horrendous long term memory, and the short tern gets shorter all the time.

... and yet it is about left versus right.

From your posts, you are obviously from the legal profession.

But, will you deny that the assailment of the 2nd amendment has not come from the left?

I never raised the issue of race, religion, gender, or sexual orientation, nor injected such issues into this conversation.

... YOU did.

I personally look to ALL races, creeds, genders, sexual orientations to support our collective 2nd Amendment rights.

... your opinion may vary, and I may personally disagree with your perspective, but I definitely and unequivocally support your right to express your opinions, unmarred by my personal opinion.

I'm not going to deny that the a strong majority of the vocal anti-gun crowd typically lean to the left. at the same time, however, we cannot take the Left as a whole and assume that all of them are in opposition to your pro-2nd viewpoints.

one of the reasons why i bring this up is because i am sometimes appalled by the things that are posted on this forum.  usually i can appreciate a good debate, but some of the very vocal members here write very hateful things--and sometimes those hateful posts encourage more hateful speech.  in some cases, these threads quickly die, but sometimes they continue living and evolve into a sort of echo chamber where other members are goaded into jumping onto a "hate" bandwagon.

it is for that reason that i am sometimes ashamed to associate myself with this forum.  i don't want others to perceive me as being a member of a group that inspires and instigates hate.

at the same time, like you said, i too respect your right to express yourself.

I would ask why do the groups you singled out constantly and viciously attack the rights of all citizens to be armed, including themselves?

How do we get the left gun owners to value their rights to armed self defense and gun ownership rights over their pre-existing desire to strip those same rights?

you pose two very good questions.  i don't have those answers.

i'd like to point out, however, that there might be ways that we could encourage pro-gun support from these groups.  here's a good example--there were a lot of articles that came out in the wake of the Pulse shooting that were related to the overnight spike in Pink Pistol membership.  http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/pink-pistols-lgbt-gun-owners-unite-in-arming-gay-community-20160628

although the pro-gun supporters amongst the LGBT community, as manifested in the Pink Pistols organization, is a minority within a minority, we should embrace them and laud them for their choice to openly break from the traditional perception of the LGBT community as a whole.

similarly, i read an interesting article about an organization called the "Liberal Gun Club."  http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-ol-patt-morrison-nra-liberal-gun-club-20160617-snap-story.html

all in all, if the goal is to prevent the erosion of gun rights, then wouldn't it make more sense to gather as many people together as possible so that there is a stronger and more diverse base among the supporters?


as a side note, i'm curious as to why "new guy" erases a lot of his posts and replaces them with a full stop.  i don't mean to start drama, but i'm just wondering what the reason is.

Even tho some people on the left support 2A they still vote for the left. That basically destroys their pro 2a feelings. It dosent matter how much they want the second amendment to be around and if they think that firearms are a freedom that all people should have. If they vote in leadership that dosent then that right gets eroded an eliminated by their feelings for other matters. Unless they can be convinced to vote otherwise they should be written of and the effort should be used elsewhere.

The fact of the matter is American politics have become so broken from the republic that they were designed to be. It has become majority rules no matter what (democracy), instead of majority rules as long as it dosent infringe on the rights of others. The federal government has got to the point where they are destroying individual states rights and controlling more and more of our lifes.

The government has literally spent the last 20 years brainwashing kids and young adults into believing that leftism (socialism, Communism, progressiveness) is the only way forward, That doing what they are told is right (by the government) is for the greater good, even if that means eroding the individual liberty's and freedoms of others. Leftism is all that is taught in schools these days from Kindergarten all the way through university. Leftism is rampant in this country and if you dont go along with it you are shamed or attacked for your beliefs

that's why I support term limits.
F*ckin elitism.
They forget they were elected by us to serve.

They don't forget. They just don't care once they are in office. They would care if they had term limits and had opponents to run against them at every election.

In general, the anti-gun folks that I come across know little to nothing about guns.

Many times, it boils down to how to convince an ignorant person that they are ignorant.   

....
I'm going to remember that.

^+1
That's a classic quote drck 


Regarding the sideways topic in this post.
Left, Right
Can't we all just get along ?

I'm a left leaning Democrat who loves guns and the Constitution.
 Not mutually exclusive, contrary to popular belief.
( although Aiea78 and my brother have reasoned me toward the center, but that's another story)
(Also wouldn't vote for Hillary though or Schatz )

Extremists are extremists no matter what flag they fly under.
That doesn't make the whole group extremists.

The way Democrats and Liberals are talked about on this forum we've alienated 80% of the State's population.
Probably a lot of people who support 2A.

Then we talk about voter base ? 

Why do you think there's so many guests (lurkers) and not members at any one time ?
( right now 39 guests, 16 members )