http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/breaking/136665253.html?id=136665253


So I am on a Vette forum and had been discussing something along these lines maybe only within the last two weeks.  One member had posted a pic of a BB gun that was mocked up to look like an AR pistol.  I had remarked that I was surprised that the tip wasn't painted orange like an airsoft rifle.  A member had replied that it's a BB gun and not airsoft, to which I responded yes I understand but a LEO might not be able to know the difference as many are not gun guys.

Anyhow, fast forward to today and this.  I wonder how much longer before someone pushes for all BB/pellet guns to be painted with orange tips.


Back on specific topic...............seems like the kid was trying to do a suicide by cop and he got his wish.  Sad that those police officers will now need to carry this with them for the rest of their lives because of this kid.

Texas police kill 8th-grader armed with pellet gun at school

By Christopher Sherman

Associated Press

POSTED: 06:29 a.m. HST, Jan 04, 2012
LAST UPDATED: 02:48 p.m. HST, Jan 04, 2012




Police shot and killed an eighth-grader in the hallway of his middle school Wednesday after the boy brandished what looked like a handgun and pointed it at officers. It turned out to be a pellet gun that closely resembled the real thing.

The 15-year-old "had plenty of opportunities to lower the gun and listen to the officers' orders, and he didn't want to," Interim Police Chief Orlando Rodriguez said.

Shortly before the confrontation, Jaime Gonzalez had walked into a classroom and punched a random boy in the nose for no apparent reason. Police did not know why he pulled out the weapon.

"We think it looks like this was a way to bring attention to himself," the police chief said.

Gonzalez did not threaten students or teachers, and no one else was hurt.

Authorities declined to share what Gonzalez said before being shot.

"There were witnesses that saw everything," Rodriguez said. "We are happy there were not other victims."

The shooting happened as classes were about to begin at Cummings Middle School in Brownsville. Teachers locked classroom doors and turned off lights, and some frightened students climbed under their desks. They could hear police charge down the hallway and shout for Gonzalez to drop the weapon, followed by several shots.

Two officers fired three shots, hitting Gonzalez at least twice, police said.

The boy's godmother, Norma Leticia Navarro, said she couldn't imagine why he would have brought a gun to school.

"I wish I could ask him why he did that, 'Why did you put yourself in that position?'"

She said she understood that police were doing their job, but she wondered if other steps could have been taken.

"Jaime was not a bad kid," she said. "I'm not saying he was perfect or an angel, but he was a very giving person."

David A. Dusenbury, a retired deputy police chief in Long Beach, Calif., who now consults on police tactics, said the officers were probably justified in their actions.

If the boy was raising the gun as if to fire at someone, "then it's unfortunate, but the officer certainly would have the right under the law to use deadly force."

Administrators said the school would be closed Thursday but that students could attend classes at a nearby elementary school if they wished.

Superintendent Carl Montoya remembered Gonzalez as "a very positive young man."

"He did music. He worked well with everybody. Just something unfortunately happened today that caused his behavior to go the way it went. So I don't know."

The boy "walked in a class and assaulted a kid, and then he ran out in the hall."

Gina Rangel was in her first-period class in the gym when the school was locked down. She said friends who were closer to the confrontation heard the boy threaten to kill everyone.

Her mother, Irma Rangel, said she was worried about the school's safety "because if this happened once, kids imitate."

Brownsville, on Texas' southern tip, is beset by spillover violence from Mexico's drug war. As word of the shooting spread through the city, frantic parents rushed to reach their children.

Those who got there early were able to retrieve their kids, but some who arrived later found the street outside the school lined with squad cars and blocked off.

Two hours later, dozens of frustrated parents and relatives flooded out of the park pavilion without their children after school officials announced that all remaining children had been bused to a high school and could be picked up there.

Julie Tomalenas waited for an hour to pick up her 13-year-old sister before being told of the relocation.

"It was very stressful not knowing if she was OK, where she was, when we could see her again," she said.

Most people dont realize how many 15 year olds are running the streets with real guns across America.  I went through middle school and high school in the 90's when gang culture was pretty big, and it wasnt uncommon to see people taken out of class in cuffs for bringing a handgun to school.  Texas has probably the largest gang problem (street and prison, almost all hispanic) in the nation right now, this isnt very surprising.

Definitely sad for all involved.

Did they say he was a 15year old in 8th grade!? 

Pretty basic.. the kid had a pellet gun that looked real.....nothing more to it really...

It's a sad reality, but if a gun looks real and it's pointed at you and you're a police officer, I'm pretty sure you won't yell out..
"HEY YOU! 15YR OLD KID THAT SHOULD BE IN 10TH GRADE, IS THAT A REAL GUN THAT YOU'RE POINTING AT ME?!?"

It's heartbreaking.  very sad.  but if said 15 yr. old were pointing that at my son, i would hope the police would do the same.

Way sad.... you cant blaim the officers though...

Way sad.... you cant blaim the officers though...

Nope, you can blame the parents for not teaching/mentoring and well being parents.  Sorry if this is crass, but I am so tired of the wrong people being held accountable.

Rojah dat!!! Although I don't know enough about this peticular story.....Parents need to step up and be resposible for their kids actions....

Wow. Sad indeed.

Kids get a hold of things all the time.  I used to be an elementary school teacher and one morning before school started I was walking the halls and I saw  a bunch of first graders all crowded around this one kid.  All the kids were excited so I wanted to be niele and see what he had.  Bruddah had a 1911 fully loaded with a round in the chamber.  Luckily it was decocked and their hands were too small to get a good solid grip to pull the trigger.  But they were pointing it each other and making gun noises.  When I took it away the little boy was really upset and in tears.  Come to find out it was his brother's gun and he had taken it to show off to his friends and to look cool.  At the time I was still only a UH student teacher and it wasn't until the end of that semester when I got a chance to talk to that school's principal.  She told that gun turned out to be stolen and that the older brother was involved in a gang and other illegal stuff.

Now I strongly believe in firearms education and feel that all school staff should be trained in proper firearms safety basics.  They should know how to clear a gun and make it safe if need be.  Fear breeds contempt and misunderstanding.  Guns are not evil, knives have harmed more people and yet I freely carry at least two with me at all times.  It took me a long time to get my other half to understand that and to want to learn about guns and how to shoot.  Now she loves it.  And she is still a school teacher, but she is afraid to bring the subject of guns up with her coworkers because they are all anti-gun people.  She sees the wrongness in their thinking but she does not know how to bring up the subject without making her look like a bad person.  I tell her just tell them my story and if they still cannot see reason then so be it and let it be on their heads should something like that ever happen, but at least you know what to do and how to do it.

Still so sad and it really does seem like that boy intended to die.

Now I strongly believe in firearms education and feel that all school staff should be trained in proper firearms safety basics.  They should know how to clear a gun and make it safe if need be.  Fear breeds contempt and misunderstanding.

First Best Quote of the Year.

EVERYONE should know that. Grown adults that treat weapons like icky, dangerous, bad things that only certified Good Guys In Charge Of Making The World Safe Should Have is a natural outgrowth of inexperience. Whatever complaints I may have about my dad, I'm extremely thankful he let me help cast lead balls for his muzzle loaders when I was 6 and later taught me how to aim, breath and squeeze.

Sorry. That was just too spot on not to give a hearty "Hear! Hear!' even though its off topic.

(irrelevant post deleted. Would have been great if I had posted it to the right thread.... too much rum. Carry on.)

A thought about the orange tip; what happens when the bad guys start painting the tips of real guns orange? Relying on colors to identify a real threat is probably not the best solution.

A thought about the orange tip; what happens when the bad guys start painting the tips of real guns orange? Relying on colors to identify a real threat is probably not the best solution.

Good point onfloat.  I hadn't even thought about that before.  I dunno man.

Quote from: onfloat on January 05, 2012, 06:54:20 AM

A thought about the orange tip; what happens when the bad guys start painting the tips of real guns orange? Relying on colors to identify a real threat is probably not the best solution.

Good point onfloat.  I hadn't even thought about that before.  I dunno man.

I know a lot of teens and even adults that are into the airsoft thing and removing or painting the orange tip is the first thing they do.  These guys spend lots of money trying to make their "guns" as real as possible.  I know for the handgun replicas they sell full metal barrel and slide kits to give their replicas a real feel to it in terms of weight and looks.  If you look at all the airsoft stuff coming out of Asia none of them have the orange tip and they portray them in a very flattering and realistic way.  But then again you look at Asian countries in general and they have very strict firearm regulations so for those people that is the closest they will ever get to the real deal.  My dad was extremely upset when I got into paintball.  He doesn't believe in shooting people for fun be it paintballs or plastic BB's.  Then again my grandfather and all his brothers served in the military during wartime and my grandfather was career military so that really tainted my dad's views.  That and his best friend was one of the first Hawaii soldiers to be killed in the Vietnam conflict.  What it comes down to is upbringing and values.  In fact kids that learn to respect the brevity and seriousness of firearms from a young age tend to grow up more respectful of all things.  Its just another thing for leftist radicals to twist things their way.  All of this can be corrected by making teachers have to go through a firearms safety training.  Guns=Bad is not right!  That is why I get frustrated with my wife's school's mentality.

this is why i don't own any air soft stuff. my son is aware that daddy has guns and that guns can kill. i don't want him to get confused, especially when the air-soft guns look exactly like daddy's real guns.

Quote from: GZire on January 05, 2012, 09:33:17 AM

Quote from: onfloat on January 05, 2012, 06:54:20 AM

A thought about the orange tip; what happens when the bad guys start painting the tips of real guns orange? Relying on colors to identify a real threat is probably not the best solution.

Good point onfloat.  I hadn't even thought about that before.  I dunno man.

I know a lot of teens and even adults that are into the airsoft thing and removing or painting the orange tip is the first thing they do.  These guys spend lots of money trying to make their "guns" as real as possible.  I know for the handgun replicas they sell full metal barrel and slide kits to give their replicas a real feel to it in terms of weight and looks.  If you look at all the airsoft stuff coming out of Asia none of them have the orange tip and they portray them in a very flattering and realistic way.  But then again you look at Asian countries in general and they have very strict firearm regulations so for those people that is the closest they will ever get to the real deal.  My dad was extremely upset when I got into paintball.  He doesn't believe in shooting people for fun be it paintballs or plastic BB's.  Then again my grandfather and all his brothers served in the military during wartime and my grandfather was career military so that really tainted my dad's views.  That and his best friend was one of the first Hawaii soldiers to be killed in the Vietnam conflict.  What it comes down to is upbringing and values.  In fact kids that learn to respect the brevity and seriousness of firearms from a young age tend to grow up more respectful of all things.  Its just another thing for leftist radicals to twist things their way.  All of this can be corrected by making teachers have to go through a firearms safety training.  Guns=Bad is not right!  That is why I get frustrated with my wife's school's mentality.

I have several airsoft guns.  A Sig 226, a 5" 1911, and a Krink (yes KK, I have an AK variant).  Anyhow, yes the paint was taken off the tip and yes if a LEO was to see it on the streets, there is no way they would be able to tell it was an airsoft gun.

The airsoft coming out of Asia..........the ones that aren't painted are seized by customs.  I know people personally who've had their stuff seized.  Once they are in country, then yeah, the paint comes off and so long as one does not brandish it, then it should not be an issue.

Coming from real firearms to airsoft & paintball is scary because these kids & adults have little regard for safe gun handling.  My friend and I got into paintball in the 80's and I can recall at least two incidents where my friend ate some paintballs at the chrono station where he took my place.  Luckily (for me  ) I never did.  Whereas paintball has moved away from realistic looking guns, airsoft is moving (and has always) moved to making things look real.

this is why i don't own any air soft stuff. my son is aware that daddy has guns and that guns can kill. i don't want him to get confused, especially when the air-soft guns look exactly like daddy's real guns.

I understand your way of thinking.  I would hope as your son gets older and matures you will be able to introduce him to guns (firearms, air powered, spring powered, etc.) and he will be able to learn safe gun handling (regardless of how it's powered).

I think airsoft guns and paintball guns have a place in proper training.

Force on Force training and even paintball teaches you very fast that the effective utilization of cover is less painful than standing up like an idiot and getting shot. (A lesson that would be fatal in a real gunfight)

I also agree that this particular incident stems from a breakdown in parenting somewhere.

I do use airsoft to teach the kids proper firearm handling techniques. The orange tips are still intact and I have instructed the kids that if they have them in their hands and cops show up that they are supposed to drop them immediately and keep their hands visible. This is because we are usually in my front yard with them and I damn sure don't want an incident.

A thought about the orange tip; what happens when the bad guys start painting the tips of real guns orange? Relying on colors to identify a real threat is probably not the best solution.

Translucent airsoft is probably the right choice.  good luck making your 9mm translucent. Do a search for kwiknru you will find out what happens when you paint your gun.  You cause problems and a big stink for 2A rights.
As a policy matter, this wouldn't really make sense -- nor would I really support it.  I don't however think that kids should be able to purchase the airsof without a colored tip.

The 8 yr old may not know, but if we see a 15-17 year old (you can be damn sure he does).  It could be the difference between the kid going home, or being laid to rest.