My next reload adventure/misadventure (Read 127611 times)

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #60 on: May 19, 2017, 11:28:30 PM »
I'd put a rest under your stock and bring the stock up higher on your shoulder. Your head should be upright.
I appreciate the advice including your previous suggestion. I installed the riser and I find it more comfortable. Do you think this riser could damage the scope? I like this one better than the UTG I tried.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

ren

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #61 on: May 20, 2017, 03:15:55 PM »
I dont think it would damage it but your scope base is not having full contact with the receiver with only one riser in front. The base is likely flexing. Ive seen a chin weld before but with silhouette shooters. Id build the position again. Move the stock inward in your chest so that it is inline with your head. Anyways Im no expert but what worked for me may work for you.
Deeds Not Words

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #62 on: May 25, 2017, 11:11:49 AM »
Here's why I don't shoot small groups to measure accuracy. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/daniel-zimmerman/understanding-rifle-precision/

In order to shoot sub MOA, 95% of the shots (19 out of 20) have to fit within a 1.05" diameter circle at 100 yards (defined as 1 MOA). The 95% group is two standard deviations from the mean.  In order to accomplish this, the mean radius of the shots has to be within 0.27" from the group center. For extreme spread, a 3 shot group needs to be within 0.48" distance apart to be 1 MOA but statistically, a 10 shot group is more precise and reproducible than a 3 or 5 shot group. The smaller groups are useful for OCW determination to discount fouling and heat.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 08:20:02 AM by rklapp »
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2017, 11:20:11 PM »
Interesting results at the range today.

AR-15: Conintuation of the last trip's results with 22.7 to 23.5 gn TAC and Nosler 77 gn bullet. The mean radius for all five loads were mostly the same. The difference was the location of the center of the group. I might have been having problems with my Hornady electronic scale and forgot to zero occasionally. I'm still getting used to the scale. If I can buy more TAC, perhaps I'll try it again with ten loads of 22.0 to 24.0 gn. I also have the new Nosler 62 gn HP bullets that I bought for 11 cents each. They are blemish heads with varying length but consistent weight. I loaded some to the full 2.26" OAL and was impressed with the accuracy. I could also go back and revisit the RL15 with the 77 gn bullet.



MN 91/30: The 36 to 40 gn IMR4895 with the Speer 180 gn .311 wasn't working well. I need to just stick with the .312 bullets. I finally received the 170 gn LMN GC .312" bullets I ordered from Beartooth a while back. I haven't figured out what powder to use with it. Maybe Varget, maybe RL7.

The 36 to 40 gn Varget with Hornady 150 gn SP worked better. The 38 and 39 gn grouped well. I'm starting to think it's time to put an eye relief scope back on.



AK-47: I tried the Speer 150 gn SP .311 with 23 to 25 gn CFEBLK. The 23.5 gn grouped well (left target) but so did the factory Tulammo with the .308 bullet (right target). Perhaps I'll load up 50 rounds of the 23.5 gn and compare it with the factory ammo.


« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:59:48 PM by rklapp »
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

TooFewPews

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2017, 08:46:52 AM »
Here's why I don't shoot small groups to measure accuracy. http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/12/daniel-zimmerman/understanding-rifle-precision/

In order to shoot sub MOA, 95% of the shots (19 out of 20) have to fit within a 1.05" diameter circle at 100 yards (defined as 1 MOA). The 95% group is two standard deviations from the mean.  In order to accomplish this, the mean radius of the shots has to be within 0.27" from the group center. For extreme spread, a 3 shot group needs to be within 0.48" distance apart to be 1 MOA but statistically, a 10 shot group is more precise and reproducible than a 3 or 5 shot group. The smaller groups are useful for OCW determination to discount fouling and heat.

you're right in that there are good reasons to observe the mean MOA.  just know that mean MOA won't tell you the whole story.

i'm not a mathematician, but i know that the normal calculations for linear gaussian distribution will not work for a two dimensional (bivariate) distribution.  here, the 68%-95%-99.7% rule does not apply since the shots must be measured relative to each other (in addition to their relativity to the calculated center).  since you're measuring a bivariate distribution, a 39%-86%-99% rule of thumb would probably be more fitting.  (i know that "rule of thumb" isn't PC, but i'm going to say it anyway).

on top of that, it would be almost impossible for you to control for a lot of the factors (e.g. barrel heat, fouling, powder charge variance, case capacity, seating depth, neck tension, wind, human error, barrel whip, etc.), so there's always going to be a certain margin of error that you must also account for.

just know that there are statistical and practical reasons for measuring group sizes based on extreme spread and, therefore, the extreme spread measurement shouldn't be permanently discounted.

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #65 on: May 31, 2017, 03:28:29 PM »
I'm not intending to permanently discount extreme spread. I'm just saying why I prefer larger groups over smaller groups.

I'm not familiar with 39/86/99% bivariate distribution rule so I'll have to investigate. Would a bivariate 2 SD be more or less accurate than a normal 2 SD?
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

TooFewPews

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #66 on: May 31, 2017, 06:12:04 PM »
I'm not intending to permanently discount extreme spread. I'm just saying why I prefer larger groups over smaller groups.

I'm not familiar with 39/86/99% bivariate distribution rule so I'll have to investigate. Would a bivariate 2 SD be more or less accurate than a normal 2 SD?

yes it is true that a high-count groups (such as your 20-round group) will tell you how accurate your rifle if you've controlled for other factors

at the same time, a high-count group can be unnecessary if you're using it to compare loads out of the same rifle.  at some point there are diminishing returns with every additional round fired in a group.

so it really depends on your purpose, and also how well you control for the other factors.


regarding your question about the accuracy of two standard deviations when comparing single variate and bivariate scenarios, i don't have an answer.  i don't mean to offend, but i think that question is impossible to answer because it doesn't make sense.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 06:24:04 PM by TooFewPews »

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #67 on: May 31, 2017, 06:22:55 PM »
yes it is true that a high-count groups (such as your 20-round group) will tell you how accurate your rifle if you've controlled for other factors

at the same time, a high-count group can be unnecessary if you're using it to compare loads out of the same rifle.  at some point there are diminishing returns with every additional round fired in a group.

so it really depends on your purpose, and also how well you control for the other factors.


regarding your question about the accuracy of two standard deviations when comparing single variate and bivariate scenarios, i don't have an answer.  i don't mean to offend, but i think that question is impossible to answer because it doesn't make sense.
That's what I thought but it's an interesting concept. I'm not sure why a bivariate distribution would be more fitting unless wind or heat is a factor.

I agree that 10 is more statistically fitting (for lack of a better word). In my reloading process for the small caliber, I may make 10 or 20 for each load depending on if I use the measurer for the ball powders or hand measure the extruded powders. I'm finding that the extruded powders are more applicable for the larger 62 and 77 grain bullets I've been using lately.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

TooFewPews

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #68 on: May 31, 2017, 06:24:35 PM »
i was adding to my other post, but i'll just move it to a new one since you quoted my last post.

read this article:  http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Closed_Form_Precision
if you understand the concept and the mathematics behind the Rayleigh distribution model, then you're on the right track.  My only gripe with that article is the fact that the Rayleigh distribution model requires the assumption that the variance of the shot dispersion will be symmetrical on the x and y axes, hence the circular distribution.

if the article above didn't make your head spin, then read this article next:  http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Circular_Error_Probable
like i said, i'm not a mathematician or a statistician, but i think the natural distribution of most shot groups will tend to look more elliptical in nature, which is expressed in the article as the Hoyt distribution.  i posit that this phenomenon is a result of accounting for human and mechanical errors.  if you don't believe me, then look through all of the pictures you posted of your groups; almost every single one of them, regardless of the gun/ammo/optic/load used, is not a symmetrical distribution.

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #69 on: May 31, 2017, 10:14:48 PM »
i was adding to my other post, but i'll just move it to a new one since you quoted my last post.
read this article:  http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Closed_Form_Precision
if you understand the concept and the mathematics behind the Rayleigh distribution model, then you're on the right track.  My only gripe with that article is the fact that the Rayleigh distribution model requires the assumption that the variance of the shot dispersion will be symmetrical on the x and y axes, hence the circular distribution.
if the article above didn't make your head spin, then read this article next:  http://ballistipedia.com/index.php?title=Circular_Error_Probable
like i said, i'm not a mathematician or a statistician, but i think the natural distribution of most shot groups will tend to look more elliptical in nature, which is expressed in the article as the Hoyt distribution.  i posit that this phenomenon is a result of accounting for human and mechanical errors.  if you don't believe me, then look through all of the pictures you posted of your groups; almost every single one of them, regardless of the gun/ammo/optic/load used, is not a symmetrical distribution.
I appreciate it.

So under a normal distribution, the example given would be about 1 MOA for a 3 shot group with an extreme spread of 0.5" and under a bivariate distribution, would be about 0.4 MOA.



This is an interesting graph.



I'll have to tackle the other article later.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2017, 12:49:09 AM »
It was a hot and windy day at the range today. Had to wait a cycle and got a bench next to my friend, Larry. He was initially frustrated with his scope but once dialed in, was shooting quarters.

AR-15: Nosler 62 gn HP with I4895 23 to 25 gn at 100 yards. The 24 gn (middle left target) grouped best with 0.521" mean radius. I excluded three of the flyers because I sneezed. The bullets are factory seconds at 11 cents each. I loaded them to the full 2.26" COL.



300BLK: Hornady 150 gn SST with W296 13 to 15 gn at 50 yards. I'm not quite confident shooting 100 yards yet but getting there. The bullets were a single box and will probably switch to the resized .308 bullets and CFEBLK. The 14 gn (middle right target) grouped best at 0.442" mean radius. I didn't exclude the flyers. Update: I realized that I shot 15 rounds at the 3rd target and 25 rounds at the 4th target. To me, anything over 10 is good data, so I'm still sticking with the 14 gn load.



I moved the scope back one groove so it's center on the riser and it felt more comfortable. This moved the bit for the brass catcher to the front but didn't seem to be a problem with catching the brass. I also installed my new front hand grip. It was $7 on Ebay from China so took a month to finally arrive.



AK-47: Hornady 123 gn .310 Vmax with RL7 21 to 25 gn at 50 yards. I was elated with the 21 and 22 gn results so I got greedy and continued with the same target in hopes that it would travel up the paper, but it started to spread afterwards. The 25 gn were mostly cratering the primer so starting to get too hot. I previously played around with the trigger and filed a bit off the single hook. This serendipitously created a two-stage trigger with what feels like a 4 pound pull. Don't ask me how I did it, but it's amazing.







« Last Edit: June 29, 2017, 08:56:19 PM by rklapp »
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #71 on: July 01, 2017, 07:11:28 PM »
It was a sunny and squallish day at the range. I was away on the mainland for two weeks so it's good to be back. I dropped my son off at Hawaii Kai so arrived late. I've been hitting the AR a lot lately and decided to go with the Mosin and 300. Note: I'm using Facebook to host these photos, so let me know if they don't show.

MN 91/30: Started with the Varget 37.6 to 39.2 gn with Hornady .312 SP bullet. The 38.4 gn grouped really well with a 0.7" group (red box). The 38.8 gn also shot well but the second pair went high. I hit the metal target all five times.

I discovered there's an issue with using the RCBS neck sizer instead of the Lee FL sizer. The RCBS has the .308 expanding ball and I replaced the Lee die with the .311 expanding ball. I'm not sure if I can put the Lee .311 into the RCBS but doubt it. The result is that the neck bulges a bit when I insert the .312 bullet into the .308 sized neck. It's supposedly a problem because it tends to bulge out one side more than the other so it's off center by .003". How much does this effect accuracy... who's to say? I bought size 4 lead weights at JHara and slugged the bore again. This time I got .312" which is a lot better than the .314" I got before.



Next was IMR4895 36 to 40 gn with Hornady .312 RN bullet. The 38 gn grouped well in the middle. I tend to think that the SP bullet is slightly more accurate than the RN bullet. I was only able to hit the metal target three times.



300BLK: I replaced my flash hider with a compensator. I placed the top holes to the 1 o'clock position because it tends to pull to the right and I read this helps. Overall, I'm pleased with the results.



I created 50 plinking rounds with the surplus 147 gn bullets and 50 of Win296 13 to 15 gn with Hornady V-max that I resized from .310 to .308. I seated the V-max to the 2.10" COL recommended for similar bullet loads which is why the cannelure is showing since these were meant for AK rounds. I bought these for 20 cents each from TooFewPews who gave me the idea to resize them.



Again, I'm please with the results. I miscalculated the number of targets I needed so had to improvise. The 13 gn is on the left, 13.5 and 14 gn in middle, and 14.5 and 15 gn on right. I have several boxes of these AK bullets so will try again at 100 yards.



This old gopher is a warrior. I have tried to kill it, but it will not die. I have a great respect for that. (Tom Sizemore - Bringing Out the Dead) Note the divots behind the gopher.



There were several newbie groups who showed up at the last hour. One of them asked Tom how much is the range fee and he explained that it's free here. I told him he missed his chance, and he told me I could still charge to them for the chance to shoot at my gopher. I told him I'll charge 50 cents a round.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 03:08:22 PM by rklapp »
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #72 on: July 04, 2017, 04:57:12 PM »
Happy Independence Day everyone! We were creating our own fireworks at the range. It was a warm day with a brisk breeze. I arrived at the best time at 10 am and got a bench right away. There was a waiting list before and after so I lucked out. One of the ROs gave me a bag of spent .223 cases, so it was like Christmas in July.

AR-15: I changed out the gas rings in the BCG because it was starting to fail the vertical test. It was easier to replace than I thought. I made ten load groups this time with ten rounds each. Used the Reloader 15 at 22.2 to 24.0 gn with Nosler 77 gn HPBT. The 22..6 to 23.2 gn group well with 23.0 (bottom left) grouping best.



AK-47: I'm continuing to like the changes I made to the trigger. I ordered a trigger pull scale but it's taking a long time to arrive. I recently slugged the bore and verifed it's at .311". Can someone explain why if AKs are created with either .308 or .311 bores, why AK bullets are normally .310? I'm guessing it might be the same reason why we shoot .224 bullets in a .223 rifle.

Used the Reloader 7 at 20 to 22 gn with Hornady 123 gn V-max .310". The 21.0 gn (middle left) grouped best with a .527" mean radius. 50 yards...



I haven't been happy with the Federal 22s I've been shooting. About one in ten fails to fire, so I have to pull it out and reposition it for the round to work. I have a box of Blazers that I picked up at the Gun Show. At this time, I'm not interested in shooting a 15 cent round in my 22. Occasionally, the pistol works flawlessly.


« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 08:25:30 AM by rklapp »
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Inspector

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #73 on: July 05, 2017, 04:30:39 AM »
RK,

You didn't mention whether the Blazers worked or not? You also didn't mention what the problem is? In other words are you getting light strikes on the cartridge rim or is it heavy enough to ignite the cartridge and the cartridge is not igniting? Are the strikes on the cartridge consistent on all cartridges?
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #74 on: July 05, 2017, 08:21:42 AM »
RK,
You didn't mention whether the Blazers worked or not? You also didn't mention what the problem is? In other words are you getting light strikes on the cartridge rim or is it heavy enough to ignite the cartridge and the cartridge is not igniting? Are the strikes on the cartridge consistent on all cartridges?
The Blazers worked fine in the past but haven't tried the new box yet. It could be a problem with this particular box of Federals. The strikes are heavy and seem to work when I reposition the round. Perhaps the primer is not uniform in the rim. I'll try to pay more attention to the strikes next time. I have about 40 left.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Inspector

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #75 on: July 05, 2017, 08:44:35 AM »
The Blazers worked fine in the past but haven't tried the new box yet. It could be a problem with this particular box of Federals. The strikes are heavy and seem to work when I reposition the round. Perhaps the primer is not uniform in the rim. I'll try to pay more attention to the strikes next time. I have about 40 left.
The priming compound being distributed evenly around the rim has been the bain of all rimfire ammo since the beginning of time. Eley perfected a way of turning the priming compound into a liquid so it fills in the rim more completely. And then when it drys it is probably the most reliable .22 ammo manufactured. With the exception of Aguila which pays a royalty to Eley for the use of their method of priming cases. Aguila actually makes some pretty good ammo since they use Eley's old analog equipment which they bought from Eley when Eley when to digitally controlled manufacturing equipment.

I have had varying luck with Federal Champions (Blue Box). Some boxes seem to be better than others. And the same goes for their Automatch which used to be really good then has slowly gone down in quality. I had some boxes of early Automatch and some later boxes of recent manufacture. And looking at the two cartridges, there is no comparison. Not knowing your particular gun, I would guess the Blazers will work pretty flawlessly. They are like CCI Mini Mags in that they seem to work in almost everything. Even as the quality of Blazers has changed, I find that they are still almost as good as the older manufactured ammo. It is just that the older manufactured ammo did not seem to have as many fliers as the newer manufactured ammo has. But for plinking and practice, for me, they are about the best compromise between price and quality.

Unfortunately, I noticed a marked decrease in .22 ammo quality from CCI during the Obama years when the manufacturers could not keep up with demand. I documented on a few threads on Rimfire Central the decrease in quality of the CCI SV and Automatch during this period as I had ammo manufactured before and during this period. Fortunately, I have also seen an increase in quality from CCI SV since the shortages are pretty much over. Can't say the same for the Automatch as I have not purchased a new batch. But I have bought a new batch of CCI SV and I can say the quality is back up to where it was.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 08:51:35 AM by Inspector »
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

Inspector

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #76 on: July 05, 2017, 08:55:18 AM »
Here are a couple of photos of CCI SV during the Obama time frame shortage. Some rounds would not even chamber in my target pistols due to the excess lube and the big nicks/dings in the heads.
SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

macsak

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #77 on: July 05, 2017, 08:58:11 AM »
Here are a couple of photos of CCI SV during the Obama time frame shortage. Some rounds would not even chamber in my target pistols due to the excess lube and the big nicks/dings in the heads.

heads

rklapp

Re: My next reload adventure/misadventure
« Reply #78 on: July 05, 2017, 02:48:51 PM »
Here are a couple of photos of CCI SV during the Obama time frame shortage. Some rounds would not even chamber in my target pistols due to the excess lube and the big nicks/dings in the heads.
Hopefully things have improved now that this is Trump's country.


heads
What's the inside joke?
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

ren

Deeds Not Words