Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More (Read 11747 times)

drck1000

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2017, 07:05:33 AM »
Awesome stuff!   :thumbsup:  Thank you for posting that "16 rounds of freedom" video!

Those tips about bringing the gun up just as you get "on station" and transition between spots are tips that I was conveyed in IPSC/USPSA competition and they really have helped me.  They often give you a square to designated a shooting position and I was told/encouraged to have the gun up and pretty much fully extended as the lead led (right leg as moving to right or left leg if moving to the left) reaches the shooting position.  On the transition, I also had a tendency to be in a rush to get to the next station, but that usually showed up in the second shot on a target.  That said, I often wondered how those tips translated to more practical situations, so interesting that they brought those up in the Sig Course. 

Seems like you were either smiling or grimacing when you were going from station 3 to 4.  I like to think it was smiling.   ;D

Good work on getting the certificate.  How much do you feel the pressure of the master patch played on your shooting performance?  As in effect of the mental pressure aspect of your performance.  Sometimes I also think that at the end of multiday courses, both your mind and body can be pretty worn down.  Yeah, that's probably one of the best times to test and evaluate, but I'm just thinking about the effects of different stressors on performance. 

changemyoil66

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2017, 09:52:09 AM »
Good muzzle discipline on the 16 seconds vid.

510-808

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2017, 05:43:02 PM »
Great thread ZIPPZ! Many of us only dream of going to the academy.

Surf

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2017, 09:54:13 PM »
Awesome stuff!   :thumbsup:  Thank you for posting that "16 rounds of freedom" video!

Those tips about bringing the gun up just as you get "on station" and transition between spots are tips that I was conveyed in IPSC/USPSA competition and they really have helped me.  They often give you a square to designated a shooting position and I was told/encouraged to have the gun up and pretty much fully extended as the lead led (right leg as moving to right or left leg if moving to the left) reaches the shooting position.  On the transition, I also had a tendency to be in a rush to get to the next station, but that usually showed up in the second shot on a target.  That said, I often wondered how those tips translated to more practical situations, so interesting that they brought those up in the Sig Course. 

Seems like you were either smiling or grimacing when you were going from station 3 to 4.  I like to think it was smiling.   ;D

Good work on getting the certificate.  How much do you feel the pressure of the master patch played on your shooting performance?  As in effect of the mental pressure aspect of your performance.  Sometimes I also think that at the end of multiday courses, both your mind and body can be pretty worn down.  Yeah, that's probably one of the best times to test and evaluate, but I'm just thinking about the effects of different stressors on performance. 


I am sure Zippz has his own insights but this is my take on it.  It has been about 3 years since I last took the entire master course and it has progressed as any training group should.  Sig Sauer is definitely staying relevant on modern stuff and are top notch.  They remain so as they bring in just about every relevant instructor, training group, etc and have great exposure to what is out there.  With Max Michel and Kyle Lamb on the roster, there is little reason not to be relevant in the 2 sides of shooting.  They are definitely refining waste movements and infusing technique that is a steady part of competitive shooting and that is good to see.  Everyone in this course was definitely in a "tactical rig", as was I for the first day and half of today, but I ran the last half of today in my "gamer" rig. 

As far as "pressure", they do a good comprehensive approach that is what I call an analytical approach and are geared towards performance based as opposed to outcome based training.  Remind me and I will expound upon that in person.  Having said that this approach has a shooter replicating various courses of fire scored and non scored.  With no time pressure, building up speed and finally adding time pressure and building or rather reducing your times progressively.  So in reality a shooter should know exactly where they stand.  Most shooters in training are often capable of making the standard, but indeed the pressure of being able to perform under scrutiny of a "scoring evolution" or a "qualification" screws them.  There are enough scoring evolution's throughout the 2 days that you have several opportunities to post good scores towards your overall cumulative score, but you really see guys pressure out when the instructor says, OK this is a scoring stage. 

Best thing to do is play your own game within your limit of comfort of success and don't get crazy.  As an example one scoring stage of fire you get about 6 seconds.  When I rip that stage, I am in the high 3's.  Now when I run it for score I slow down to a pace that I can probably shoot it all day at 99.99% success and I add an entire 2 seconds or so, or slow down 50% and still have a good buffer zone to make the time.  Guys often have a problem with throttle control and you need to be able to understand your "high probability pace" and stay within your own game.  Really knowing your own speed vs. accuracy and staying within that is key.  Don't outrun your headlights.  Some people however obviously have a hard time when a buzzer goes off and / or when someone is standing over your shoulder with a clipboard and this is probably 90% of the problem with those that don't make it, if they were making it during training. 

My other takeaway, which is new, is that everyone gets a "certificate of achievement" and they all read master pistol instructor, no matter how you score.  You get a PVC patch for actually being successful for shooting the the cumulative score above a "passing score" or actually passing the final qualification which you now get 2 attempts, and they lowered the required hits by 1 on the qual.  I absolutely don't care for this and it is reminiscent of the new millennial "everyone gets a trophy" concept.  I could care less about the patch and it is too bad that the certificate or actual credential is the same no matter how someone scores, so you wouldn't know if a shooter actual passed the qualification or not, unless if they are upfront and honest about it.  I get why it is done, but disagree with it.  Very disappointed in that.  However and this is big, is that the training is first rate and I highly suggest training with Sig Sauer and any of the training staff that is affiliated as a full time or adjunct instructor for them.  You will definitely get some of the most recent, relevant and realistic training out there today, from some of the best instructors in the business.       

drck1000

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2017, 10:37:45 AM »
SNIP

Awesome!  Thank you for the feedback.  Some things to think about, both new and different aspects, as well as confirming other things. 

I've often been tempted to take a "gamer rig" through a course.  For me, the primary difference would be the guns themselves as well as more pistol mags.  Prior to this year, I generally shot my 17 with X300 on it in classes, but I've also shot my PPQ in a recent class.  It would be a cool to shoot my CZ in a pistol class, but then again, I also want to focus on the shooting itself and not be monkeying with different platforms too much.  Still would be fun though.  Always good to hear about well rounded training and taking best of competition and tactical aspects and improving all sides. 

The "pressure" aspect is one that I have always been interested in, particularly for shooting.  When I first got into IPSC/USPSA, I did so primarily because it allowed for shooting and moving.  Then I noticed the pressure that competition adds, be it from the timer or from your shooting buddies watching.  How they affect your adrenaline, decision making, through process, etc, which all affect your performance via stress.  And that's all self-imposed stress and not anything like stress of someone attacking you, let alone shooting at you.  I can't tell you how many times I got to the end of a shooting stage and the first thought was "I had that going differently in my mind".  You can game plan something all you want, but the first mag fumble, brain fart, whatever and it throws all that off and often WAY off.  After shooting more, I found that I could recover from things like that, but it's still amazes me how much pressure, stress, etc affects performance.  It's something that personally, I embrace and want to learn from. 

Definitely see what you mean about practice vs real/scoring thing.  Kind of like the gym fighter or driving range pro that look awesome hitting the mitts or hitting balls down the middle all day long.  Put them in the ring with a "live" person or on a golf course where score and money is on the line, they look like totally different people. 

The part about figuring out the appropriate pace is also interesting.  In IPSC/USPSA, the tendency is to try to get through the stage as quickly as possible.  Well, yeah, but one quickly learns that there's a blend of time and accuracy.  I tended to shoot 5 yard targets at same pace/rhythm as say 20 yard targets and the hits on the 20 yard targets were awful.  So that was my introduction to "high probability pace".  I still have to remind myself about that for sure.  There's also the situation where you mind is going at different speeds than your body.  One example is trigger stall that Jason at RB1 has a really good drill for.  Anyways, the key is to find your breaking point where one capability is exceeding the other and then to train in that zone.  Very interesting stuff and also quite humbling.  Yeah, when that buzzer goes off, the tendency for sure is to be like a race horse getting out of the gates, but hopefully experience and training can help me be aware of that and be more in control. 

zippz

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #25 on: May 15, 2017, 03:45:01 PM »
Seems like you were either smiling or grimacing when you were going from station 3 to 4.  I like to think it was smiling.   ;D

It felt like I was going around in circles forever.

Good work on getting the certificate.  How much do you feel the pressure of the master patch played on your shooting performance?  As in effect of the mental pressure aspect of your performance.  Sometimes I also think that at the end of multiday courses, both your mind and body can be pretty worn down.  Yeah, that's probably one of the best times to test and evaluate, but I'm just thinking about the effects of different stressors on performance.

I did want to get the patch, but I didn't feel the pressure from it.  What caused me the most stress was shooting the skills assessment on the first thing in the morning on the first day.  Half of it was being the least experienced guy in the class compared to the special forces and SWAT guys, the other half was  trying to keep up with them.  I rushed my shots to not be last.

zippz

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2017, 03:51:25 PM »
My other takeaway, which is new, is that everyone gets a "certificate of achievement" and they all read master pistol instructor, no matter how you score.  You get a PVC patch for actually being successful for shooting the the cumulative score above a "passing score" or actually passing the final qualification which you now get 2 attempts, and they lowered the required hits by 1 on the qual.  I absolutely don't care for this and it is reminiscent of the new millennial "everyone gets a trophy" concept.  I could care less about the patch and it is too bad that the certificate or actual credential is the same no matter how someone scores, so you wouldn't know if a shooter actual passed the qualification or not, unless if they are upfront and honest about it.  I get why it is done, but disagree with it.  Very disappointed in that.  However and this is big, is that the training is first rate and I highly suggest training with Sig Sauer and any of the training staff that is affiliated as a full time or adjunct instructor for them.  You will definitely get some of the most recent, relevant and realistic training out there today, from some of the best instructors in the business.       

I prefer the 2 certificate system as it shows a minimum level of proficiency attained.  With the new system it's like attend the course and get a certificate for being there.  I can understand the reasons for the change though.

zippz

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2017, 05:36:13 PM »
MASTER RIFLE

The Master Rifle Instructor class was 2 days long and followed the similar coursework, philosophy, and drills as the pistol course.  There were 15 students in the course with many most of them carrying over from the pistol course, to include the Norwegians.  I borrowed a Sig MCX rifle since I did a stop over in San Francisco and a Sig 320 pistol.  Rentals are free for students.  It took me a little while to get used to the MCX controls even though it's modeled after an AR15, just small differences in grip and  placement, adds to the aggravation for the assessment test first thing in the morning.  Guess I have to practice with other types of rifles more.  I thought I was great with rifles, but got smoked by everyone else just like the pistol course.   Had some jams again.  The Aguila 223 rounds would get dented feeding into the chamber which resulted in OOB and was difficult to extract.  The Sig 320 alsofailed to extract the empties like my glock with Fed aluminum cased.  Guess it's a bad lot of ammo.

Just like my prior rifle class, safety lever goes on anytime the sights move off the target (reloads, malfunctions, slinging during transition, etc).  A safety example is a Swat officer slung his rifle to transition to pistol and the trigger caught on a piece of his tactical gear firing a round into his foot.  The guy next to me was a Rhode Island officer shooting a SBR AR15 with a suppressor.  He took the suppressor off and he had a mean muzzle brake.  I was getting rocked by the concussion when he fired.  The good thing is it was cold, so everytime he fired I felt a nice blast of warm air for a split second.


The assessment test was fire a headshot in 1.25 seconds, fire 2 reload fire 2, transition to pistol (see video), fire ten rapid fire shots reload fire 1, and transition to support side.



One of person failed to chamber a round during the test and his rifle went "click", so he had to run about 200 yards to ring the bell of shame.  The gong of shame is to be rung by anyone that fails to chamber a round, or doesnt seat the magazine correctly prior to firing which are preventable errors.  The Norwegians said they took the idea to a whole new level by placing their bell on the top of a 50 foot rappel tower.

Some tips for improvement and efficiency -
- Bring the rifle up to your head, not head down to the rifle.  Some people do the turtle neck thing with their rifle.
- Have a good stance to control recoil.  Have a wide stance bending your support side kne forward and put your chin over your knee.
- If you're shots are going to the sides, check the position of your feet, may have to turn them towards the target.  Also your trigger finger should make contact with the full face of the trigger..  NPOA
- Lengthening your stock can help with recoil control and accuracy.
- It's easier to manuever the rifle if your support hand is forward on the handguards instead of gripping the magwell
- For transition to pistol, your strong side hand immediately releases the pistol grip and goes for the draw.  A lot of  people (including me) unconsciously use both hands to put the rifle aside.

Worked on zeroing up to 50 yards, worked on accuracy and speed  at 50 yards standing.  Then did some drills like srong/support side one handed shooting, reloads, and
applying the tournaquet.  Another thing I have to practice more.  We didn't go over the one hand double feed malfunction clearing like in my past class, that's really challenging to do.  We did some movement drills like the 20 Rounds of Freedom, shoot on the move around barrels, and shoot on the move in oblique angles.  That's the fun stuff since most places doen't allow movement and shooting except for the USPSA stuff.  Then we did some other exercises like run shuffle run, running between barricades, and other stuff.  Even the simplest of games really mess with your head under stress.  Though I had some videos of it but guess it didn't take.  My partner had a click on an empty chamber, so off to ring the bell of shame.



I passed the final skills test this time just by a hair.  I had 3 shots outside of the scoring ring and one of my pistol shots was just a hair inside of the ring.  Got my patch!  I think 7 others got the patch too.

zippz

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2017, 11:08:27 AM »
I'll help prep anyone planing on taking the instructor course there.  I have the course materials and some paper targets.

zippz

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2017, 04:17:36 PM »
A few more pics from my trip.  Took a trip up to Portland, MA to explore and got a lobster roll on the way there at Mabels.  This one was much better than the one I got at the gas station restaurant the last time I was here, but it was $24.  Some pics of Portland and the Seafood Bouillabaisse.  GOtta eat the fresh seafood while I'm there.  Then did some spelunking in Colorado, though it was touristy tour of a cave.

zippz

Re: Sig Sauer Saga 2 - Back for More
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2017, 01:18:17 PM »
Update for the archives..

Finally got my McLobster.   In Hawaii.