Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety" (Read 14201 times)

punaperson

Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« on: May 01, 2017, 08:50:10 AM »
IF, and that's a big IF, we ever get around to having a hearing in the Hawaii legislature on any bill that would decriminalize our right to bear arms outside the home for self-defense this case will probably be put forward by the AG, et al. as proof that CCW (or open carry) endangers the public. As far as they're concerned this is convincing proof that citizens are incapable of using anything approaching rational judgment regarding appropriate use of firearms outside the home. In the woman's defense, who hasn't drawn a gun on a fumbling incompetent employee who is wasting your time at some business like the barbershop or Home Depot? Certainly time-wasting incompetence like that warrants AT LEAST brandishing, right?

I hope that any testimony using this example as "evidence" will include 1. Whether this person was the legal owner of the firearm, and 2. Whether this person was a legal CCW licensee according to the laws of Cleveland and Ohio. Minor detail I know, but still...

Mom pulls gun on Cleveland barber when son's haircut takes too long

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/04/mom_pulls_gun_on_cleveland_bar.html

[Note: Security camera images included with the written article may be considered by some as "racist".]

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The mother of a 7-year-old boy getting his haircut pulled a gun on the barber because she thought it was taking too long, according to a police report.

The woman complained several times before a manager came over to talk to the barber. The woman walked up and asked if he had something to say to her, according to a police report.

The woman pulled a handgun from her purse and pointed it at the barber, the report says.

"I got two clips. I'll pop you," she said, according to the report.

* * * * *
Thanks to David Codrea http://waronguns.blogspot.com/

macsak

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2017, 08:56:19 AM »
IF, and that's a big IF, we ever get around to having a hearing in the Hawaii legislature on any bill that would decriminalize our right to bear arms outside the home for self-defense this case will probably be put forward by the AG, et al. as proof that CCW (or open carry) endangers the public. As far as they're concerned this is convincing proof that citizens are incapable of using anything approaching rational judgment regarding appropriate use of firearms outside the home. In the woman's defense, who hasn't drawn a gun on a fumbling incompetent employee who is wasting your time at some business like the barbershop or Home Depot? Certainly time-wasting incompetence like that warrants AT LEAST brandishing, right?

I hope that any testimony using this example as "evidence" will include 1. Whether this person was the legal owner of the firearm, and 2. Whether this person was a legal CCW licensee according to the laws of Cleveland and Ohio. Minor detail I know, but still...

Mom pulls gun on Cleveland barber when son's haircut takes too long

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/04/mom_pulls_gun_on_cleveland_bar.html

[Note: Security camera images included with the written article may be considered by some as "racist".]

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The mother of a 7-year-old boy getting his haircut pulled a gun on the barber because she thought it was taking too long, according to a police report.

The woman complained several times before a manager came over to talk to the barber. The woman walked up and asked if he had something to say to her, according to a police report.

The woman pulled a handgun from her purse and pointed it at the barber, the report says.

"I got two clips. I'll pop you," she said, according to the report.

* * * * *
Thanks to David Codrea http://waronguns.blogspot.com/

the manager and other employees are pretty calm about her pointing a gun everywhere

westside22

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2017, 09:19:08 AM »
Brandishing and threatening someone with a gun for not cutting hair faster? Certifiable!

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;-)

oldfart

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2017, 09:32:27 AM »
Decaf
 :rofl:
What, Me Worry?

changemyoil66

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2017, 10:01:08 AM »
What anti 2a people don't realize is CCW permitting is 1 thing, and brandishing a gun or using deadly force has an entire different set of rules to follow.

drck1000

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2017, 10:28:18 AM »
the manager and other employees are pretty calm about her pointing a gun everywhere
Was the gun out of battery?  Like that video of the fast food place where the clerk remained super calm as he handed over everything in the register.  The comments on that posting was pretty entertaining. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2017, 11:14:56 AM »
I see nothing in any of the articles that says she had any kind of permit to carry.  In fact, police are still trying to identify and locate the woman.

"CCW" always implies a legally permitted act.  This may have been someone illegally carrying a firearm in her purse.

I would refrain from jumping to conclusions or unintentionally characterizing this as a CCW-involved incident.  If new reports verify she had a carry permit, then the term should be used.

Just my 2-cents.

 :geekdanc:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2017, 12:51:24 PM »
I see nothing in any of the articles that says she had any kind of permit to carry.  In fact, police are still trying to identify and locate the woman.

"CCW" always implies a legally permitted act.  This may have been someone illegally carrying a firearm in her purse.

I would refrain from jumping to conclusions or unintentionally characterizing this as a CCW-involved incident.  If new reports verify she had a carry permit, then the term should be used.

Just my 2-cents.

 :geekdanc:
That was one of my points. There is no evidence (yet) that she was the legal owner of that gun, much less that she was carrying legally... BUT it's the kind of incident that is pointed out by the civilian disarmament advocates as evidence that carrying guns in public has bad results. If she was a legal CCW licensee, then it would be part of the data re cost/benefit analysis of the issue, but until we know that, it's just another criminal act that has no bearing on the consequences involved in legal (permitted/licensed) carry (of course we know the results (people who carry are FAR LESS FREQUENTLY ARRESTED FOR ANY KINDS OF CRIMES than the general public or even cops) from the "permitless carry" states where anyone can carry without permission or training or anything at all and there have been no "negative consequences"... for "public safety" nor anything else despite the dire "blood in the streets" warnings from the grabbers).

I would like to know the followup and answers to those questions, but I suspect it's not very high on the priority list of Cleveland PD.

westside22

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2017, 12:26:22 PM »
What is the EXACT criteria used by the Chief Of Police (Oahu)? It can't be random there must be guidelines in writing to foll ow.

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;-)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2017, 12:39:15 PM »
What is the EXACT criteria used by the Chief Of Police (Oahu)? It can't be random there must be guidelines in writing to foll ow.

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Quote
§134-9 Licenses to carry. (a) In an exceptional case, when an applicant shows reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property,
the chief of police of the appropriate county may grant a license to an applicant who is a citizen of the United States of the age of
twenty-one years or more or to a duly accredited official representative of a foreign nation of the age of twenty-one years or more
to carry a pistol or revolver and ammunition therefor concealed on the person within the county where the license is granted. Where
the urgency or the need has been sufficiently indicated, the respective chief of police may grant to an applicant of good moral character
who is a citizen of the United States of the age of twenty-one years or more, is engaged in the protection of life and property, and is not
prohibited under section 134-7 from the ownership or possession of a firearm, a license to carry a pistol or revolver and ammunition
therefor unconcealed on the person within the county where the license is granted. The chief of police of the appropriate county, or the
chief's designated representative, shall perform an inquiry on an applicant by using the National Instant Criminal Background Check
System, to include a check of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement databases where the applicant is not a citizen of the United
States, before any determination to grant a license is made. Unless renewed, the license shall expire one year from the date of issue.

(b) The chief of police of each county shall adopt procedures to require that any person granted a license to carry a concealed weapon
on the person shall:

(1) Be qualified to use the firearm in a safe manner;

(2) Appear to be a suitable person to be so licensed;

(3) Not be prohibited under section 134-7 from the ownership or possession of a firearm; and

(4) Not have been adjudged insane or not appear to be mentally deranged.

(c) No person shall carry concealed or unconcealed on the person a pistol or revolver without being licensed to do so under this
section or in compliance with sections 134-5(c) or 134-25.

(d) A fee of $10 shall be charged for each license and shall be deposited in the treasury of the county in which the license is granted.
[L 1988, c 275, pt of §2; am L 1994, c 204, §8; am L 1997, c 254, §§2, 4; am L 2000, c 96, §1; am L 2002, c 79, §1; am L 2006, c 27, §3 and c 66, §3; am L 2007, c 9, §8]

Basic translation:  the Chief must agree you represent an exceptional case and are at significant risk of death or serious injury.  The standard is arbitrary, ambiguous and 100% subjective.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

westside22

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2017, 01:25:16 PM »
First off thanks.
If a 100% disabled (service connected) vet is unable to adequately defend himself from harm or able to protect someone aiding him BUT is able to handle/use a firearm a candidate for said license? After all isn't it a case of protection not a case of robbing the Quicky Mart?

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« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 05:23:30 PM by westside22 »
;-)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2017, 01:43:51 PM »
First off thanks.
If a 100% disabled (service connected) vet is unable to adequately defend himself from harm or able to protect someone adding him BUT is able to handle/use a firearm a candidate for said license? After all isn't it a case of protection not a case of robbing the Quicky Mart?

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Unless there is an actual, verified, and immediate threat to the vet from a specific person or persons, the chief will send a denial letter saying they should take other precautions and call 911 if they feel they have an emergency.

The running joke is from the new chief before he became chief saying people should get a big dog.  No word on how many of these big dogs the police have shot because of barking.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

rklapp

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2017, 01:56:21 PM »
If we were allowed CCW, I would be okay with the State mandating insurance although I would prefer to have in a holster rather than my pocket. Requiring insurance so I can take my firearms to the range is ridiculous. I would also be okay with a law requiring the carrier to inform a police officer when pulled over in a car like they require in Alaska.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2017, 02:12:06 PM »
If we were allowed CCW, I would be okay with the State mandating insurance although I would prefer to have in a holster rather than my pocket. Requiring insurance so I can take my firearms to the range is ridiculous. I would also be okay with a law requiring the carrier to inform a police officer when pulled over in a car like they require in Alaska.

What kind of insurance are you referring to?  There are many kinds.  Who is supposed to be protected by this mandatory insurance? 

Also, please address how the state will force people with unregistered/illegal guns to carry insurance, since much more risk of property damage and injury/death exists when guns are used in the commission of a crime.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #14 on: May 11, 2017, 02:41:51 PM »
Basic translation:  the Chief must agree you represent an exceptional case and are at significant risk of death or serious injury.  The standard is arbitrary, ambiguous and 100% subjective.

Let me point out a few other ambiguities that are completely arbitrary, capricious and undefined and thus allow for essentially random "discretion" to (clearly unconstitutionally) keep Hawaii citizens from exercising their right to bear arms.

Quote
 §134-9 Licenses to carry. (a) In an exceptional case, when an applicant shows reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property,

[As Flapp pointed out there is no terminology involved that is not totally arbitrary and subjective. That's why I've written several police chiefs and asked them to "Please provide five (5) verbatim statements appearing on applications for CCW licenses that would result in you granting the license to the applicant". Of course what I received in reply was a copy of 134-9, as if I didn't already know what that says. The police chiefs have no interest in the slightest "transparency" nor "accountability" because their true response would be "We do not grant CCW licenses no matter the circumstance". In the two applications that I was finally able to acquire via my Office of Information Practices Act (OIPA) appeals from one police department that granted two (2) (one in 2006, one in 2013) of the four (4) CCW licenses issued in the state of Hawaii in the past 17 years, the statement by the applicants was not included (among other incomplete and incorrectly filled out portions of the forms).

Also note that "when an applicant shows reason to fear injury to the applicant's person or property" is NOT sufficient "cause". The chief could easily state that while a person may have such evidence of a "reasonable" fear, that fear must also be "exceptional". Just as there is no definition of "reason to fear" there is no definition of "exceptional case". Here's one anecdote: Woman who testified against a male convicted of a crime sees the guy in a store a few years later when he gets out of prison. He "gives her a look" that she interpreted as "threatening". NOT an "exceptional case". License application denied. Totally arbitrary.]

the chief of police of the appropriate county may grant a license to an applicant who is a citizen of the United States of the age of
twenty-one years or more or to a duly accredited official representative of a foreign nation of the age of twenty-one years or more
to carry a pistol or revolver and ammunition therefor concealed on the person within the county where the license is granted. Where the urgency or the need has been sufficiently indicated,

[As I've pointed out on this forum previously, what could possibly be the "urgency or need" to be a security guard (the only people considered for "open carry" licenses)? "I'm broke, unemployed, and my unemployment insurance has run out. I'm URGENTLY in NEED of a job!" I've never received an answer to that question either. From anyone, from police chiefs to the Office of Attorney General.]

the respective chief of police may grant to an applicant of good moral character

[Another term for which there is absolutely no definition, thus making it completely arbitrary and capricious at the whim/discretion of the chief. Again, no one will answer my question as to what the legal definition of "good moral character" is.]

who is a citizen of the United States of the age of twenty-one years or more, is engaged in the protection of life and property,

[I might be getting "picky" here, but none of the dictionaries I looked at had any definitions of the word "engaged" that meant, or were synonymous with, "employed".]

and is not prohibited under section 134-7 from the ownership or possession of a firearm, a license to carry a pistol or revolver and ammunition
therefor unconcealed on the person within the county where the license is granted. The chief of police of the appropriate county, or the
chief's designated representative, shall perform an inquiry on an applicant by using the National Instant Criminal Background Check
System, to include a check of the Immigration and Customs Enforcement databases where the applicant is not a citizen of the United
States, before any determination to grant a license is made. Unless renewed, the license shall expire one year from the date of issue.


[For the copies of the two licenses that I was able to acquire via OIPA, NEITHER was granted for the legally mandated one year term. The word used in the law is "shall", not "may" or "whatever". In other words, they didn't follow the law as written, which is clear and simple (as opposed to all the other vague and ambiguous terms). So even where the law states specific concrete unambiguous terms, the police department ignored them and did whatever they wanted, using "discretion" that does not exist. In many follow up letters over many months the department would only say "We follow the law," in blatant contradiction to both statements they made about issuing the licenses for less than one year and the very documents that prove they didn't follow the law.]

(b) The chief of police of each county shall adopt procedures to require that any person granted a license to carry a concealed weapon
on the person shall:

(1) Be qualified to use the firearm in a safe manner;

[There is no definition nor objective criteria as to what constitutes "qualified", nor "safe manner". They won't answer the question. 200 hundred hours of "certified" training? No one knows. It can mean whatever they want it to mean.]

(2) Appear to be a suitable person to be so licensed;

[No definition anywhere of "suitable person", nor of "appear" and who determines "appearance". Nor why it's not based upon BEING a suitable person as opposed to APPEARING as one. They won't answer the question when posed to them. Not one word. Obviously another arbitrary and capricious "out" for denying someone who might actually "qualify" under one or more of the other (undefined) criteria.]

(3) Not be prohibited under section 134-7 from the ownership or possession of a firearm; and

(4) Not have been adjudged insane or not appear to be mentally deranged.

[And yet again no definition and will not respond when asked exactly what that means and who will make the determination that a person APPEARS not to be mentally deranged, nor what qualifications the person making such a determination must have. I doubt any qualified mental health professional would be willing to bet their life that he/she could, with 100% accuracy, tell whether or not a person is "mentally deranged" based upon their "APPEARANCE". But I guess the police chief thinks he has the skills.]

(c) No person shall carry concealed or unconcealed on the person a pistol or revolver without being licensed to do so under this
section or in compliance with sections 134-5(c) or 134-25.

(d) A fee of $10 shall be charged for each license and shall be deposited in the treasury of the county in which the license is granted.
[L 1988, c 275, pt of §2; am L 1994, c 204, §8; am L 1997, c 254, §§2, 4; am L 2000, c 96, §1; am L 2002, c 79, §1; am L 2006, c 27, §3 and c 66, §3; am L 2007, c 9, §8]

[Other than those few minor quibbles, the law is perfectly rational, reasonable, and fully in accord with the U.S. Constitution and the Hawaii State Constitution which BOTH state that the "right to keep AND BEAR arms shall NOT BE INFRINGED". ]
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 02:49:37 PM by punaperson »

drck1000

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2017, 03:23:12 PM »
If we were allowed CCW, I would be okay with the State mandating insurance although I would prefer to have in a holster rather than my pocket. Requiring insurance so I can take my firearms to the range is ridiculous. I would also be okay with a law requiring the carrier to inform a police officer when pulled over in a car like they require in Alaska.
What would this insurance that you have in mind cover? And why gun owners?

Would you be ok having everyone having to pay liability insurance just in case one commits a crime? Then again, those who commit crimes probably aren't prone to following rules, laws and those pesky things. Again, you are completely missing the point.


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jonjon

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2017, 03:38:37 PM »
Does anyone have any data on what has happened in Guam after they went from "May Issue" to "Shall Issue" on CCW? It's been 3 years since the change and just curious if Guam has turned into the wild wild west and if the streets are running red with the blood of the innocent  :crazy: but seriously it would be nice to know if there is any data on the reduction/increase of firearms related crimes before and after the change also if there was an increase on tourist related crimes after the change. 

drck1000

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2017, 03:50:53 PM »
Does anyone have any data on what has happened in Guam after they went from "May Issue" to "Shall Issue" on CCW? It's been 3 years since the change and just curious if Guam has turned into the wild wild west and if the streets are running red with the blood of the innocent  :crazy: but seriously it would be nice to know if there is any data on the reduction/increase of firearms related crimes before and after the change also if there was an increase on tourist related crimes after the change.
I'll ask my buddy living there, but seems business as usual. Went there 4 or 5 times last year and was same as the 15-20 times I went there since like 2005. One of my buddies that lives there is a fellow gun nut. His collection dwarfs mine and I have a decent amount. I'll have to ask him about that. I recall guns being easier to acquire in certain ways, but something (can remember details now), but it's not like it is in the PI.


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rklapp

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2017, 07:23:25 PM »
What kind of insurance are you referring to?  There are many kinds.  Who is supposed to be protected by this mandatory insurance? 
Also, please address how the state will force people with unregistered/illegal guns to carry insurance, since much more risk of property damage and injury/death exists when guns are used in the commission of a crime.
I'm referring to the proposed bill that is stapled to the bulletin board next to the RSO station. I can't remember the bill #. In Hawaii, the insurance would be offered by the Dept. of Revenue. As I said, I'm opposed to this for anything other than CCW. There was a recent post that mentioned that the NRA is now offering this insurance.

I do question how HPD will enforce the mandatory insurance. Will we have to obtain "safety stickers" for our rifles? Will the HPD walk over from the qualification range and check to make sure every rifle has a safety sticker on the stock? (I'm being facetious because the insurance would be on the owner, not the firearm.)

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/31075992/proposal-would-require-gun-insurance-firearm-renewals-every-5-years
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Proof CCW is a danger to "public safety"
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2017, 09:28:14 PM »
I'm referring to the proposed bill that is stapled to the bulletin board next to the RSO station. I can't remember the bill #. In Hawaii, the insurance would be offered by the Dept. of Revenue. As I said, I'm opposed to this for anything other than CCW. There was a recent post that mentioned that the NRA is now offering this insurance.

I do question how HPD will enforce the mandatory insurance. Will we have to obtain "safety stickers" for our rifles? Will the HPD walk over from the qualification range and check to make sure every rifle has a safety sticker on the stock? (I'm being facetious because the insurance would be on the owner, not the firearm.)

http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/31075992/proposal-would-require-gun-insurance-firearm-renewals-every-5-years

I asked those questions (which you unsurprisingly again chose to not answer), because the answers are very important.

You should do some research on the pros, cons and impossibilities related to CCW insurance.

For instance, insurance companies do not cover intentional acts which cause damage or injury/death.  Therefore, if you use a gun to defend yourself, insurance will not pay the medical bills of the person you shot, the bystander that was accidentally hit by a shattered window, the hole in the door in the store front behind the person you were shooting at, nor the pain, suffering or loss of income of the family of the person you shot.

Once again, who and what do you think the insurance should cover?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw