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C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book (Read 8318 times)

jerry_03

C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« on: May 01, 2017, 02:08:28 PM »
I'm looking to get a M1917 in a couple months. I usually go to gunbroker for these C&R's just cause they're sometimes hard to find here on island. Anyways I have a C&R License and usually only buy it from buyers who ship to C&R just to save on the fees. I noticed in the booklet theres no M1917 listed. Not under Enfield, Lee-Enfield, British Enfield, M1917, Pattern 14 or Pattern 17.

My main concern is when i take it to register at HPD, they always ask me to show the page on the booklet where its listed. I'm wondering what they'd do at that point and if they'd still let me register it.

I sorta had a similar situation when I bought a Swiss K11 with my C&R. The particular variant I had (carbine model) wasnt in the ATF booklet but the standard model was so they let it slide.

I know I can always just have it shipped to a regular FFL but i might as well use my C&R since I have it
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Tom_G

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2017, 02:21:29 PM »
If it's over 50, it's a C&R. Says so in the rules.

Here's the important part (emphasis is theirs, not mine!):
Quote
Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF's C&R list. Therefore, ATF does not generally list firearms in the C&R publication by virtue of their age.

I'd print that page and take it with me to HPD, preparing for a lengthy discussion. Alternately, when they ask you for a copy of the page from the list, just hand them that piece of paper.
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The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

jerry_03

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2017, 02:23:46 PM »
lol. Okay. The M1917's are at least 100 years old, so it fits that bill.
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2017, 02:28:53 PM »
Quote from: jerry_03 on May 01, 2017, 02:23:46 PM
lol. Okay. The M1917's are at least 100 years old, so it fits that bill.

Make sure you have proof of the year manufactured.  HPD isn't going to take your word.

The bill of sale, an engraving, or authentication from the manufacturer would all be good documentation.
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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

suka

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2017, 02:36:26 PM »
Yeah , anything over 50 years is a C&R automatically,.

In 30 years most assault pistol manufactured in the 80's  will be C&R and would be legal in Hawaii once again.


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Tom_G

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2017, 02:52:06 PM »
Quote from: suka on May 01, 2017, 02:36:26 PM
Yeah , anything over 50 years is a C&R automatically,.

In 30 years most assault pistol manufactured in the 80's  will be C&R and would be legal in Hawaii once again.


Quote
Please note that firearms regulated under the National Firearms Act (NFA) may be classified as C&R items, but still may be subject to the provisions of the NFA. If your C&R item is an NFA firearm (e.g., Winchester Trappers) and you desire removal from the NFA status, you must submit it to FATD for evaluation and a formal classification.

FATD
244 Needy Rd.,
Martinsburg, WV 25404

Our Division does not make determinations based on drawings, photographs, written descriptions, or diagrams.  In order to render an appropriate classification, please ship the physical item and any supporting information to the address above.
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The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

suka

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2017, 03:45:33 PM »
？？？

Assault pistols are not NFA,.....

 "Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:

    ................but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length,
 an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code �921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.
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Gordyf

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2017, 05:06:37 PM »
Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on May 01, 2017, 02:28:53 PM
Make sure you have proof of the year manufactured.  HPD isn't going to take your word.

The bill of sale, an engraving, or authentication from the manufacturer would all be good documentation.

Plus one on that.
"Come on you guys, S&W hasn't made  a  32-20 revolver since 1929" didn't fly.
Had to produce the proof by way of the book and serial number references.
Save yourself an extra trip.
Aloha :crazy:
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Aloha
Gordy

Tom_G

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2017, 11:33:45 PM »
Quote from: suka on May 01, 2017, 03:45:33 PM
？？？

Assault pistols are not NFA,.....

 "Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine and which has two or more of the following characteristics:

    ................but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length,
 an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code �921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.

My bad.

You were talking about silly Hawaii laws.
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The difference between theory and reality is that, in theory, there is no difference between theory and reality.

Mr. Farknocker

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2017, 09:20:29 AM »
What is and what you can show are two different things (sure sounds the same as a trial).  HPD will give you a hard time unless you can convince them of the age of the firearm. I ended up downloading info from the internet and buying an authoritative book on the history of the firearm. I bookmarked and highlighted pages from these sources to make it easy for them to find and they accepted it.  The process brings to mind a fraternal rite of passage or some sort of game that you have to play in order to get it qualified as C&R if it's not in the book. HPD may know fully well that your firearm is C&R but they will make you run the gauntlet, nonetheless. A letter from the BATF is a sure thing but BATF usually take about 6 weeks to respond. If you can get the details on the firearm ahead of time, write to the BATF and wait for its response before purchasing the firearm.   
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Flapp_Jackson

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #10 on: May 02, 2017, 10:26:49 AM »
I just showed HPD the weapon itself stamped 1928, and a WikiPedia article showing last date of manufacture for all M1895s was 1945.

No question as to age. 

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The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

jerry_03

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2017, 10:38:44 PM »
Quote from: Mr. Farknocker on May 02, 2017, 09:20:29 AM
What is and what you can show are two different things (sure sounds the same as a trial).  HPD will give you a hard time unless you can convince them of the age of the firearm. I ended up downloading info from the internet and buying an authoritative book on the history of the firearm. I bookmarked and highlighted pages from these sources to make it easy for them to find and they accepted it.  The process brings to mind a fraternal rite of passage or some sort of game that you have to play in order to get it qualified as C&R if it's not in the book. HPD may know fully well that your firearm is C&R but they will make you run the gauntlet, nonetheless. A letter from the BATF is a sure thing but BATF usually take about 6 weeks to respond. If you can get the details on the firearm ahead of time, write to the BATF and wait for its response before purchasing the firearm.   

good info. I already have a book about the particular firearm, M1917 detailing the production dates and markings.
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armsinc

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2017, 11:02:09 PM »
... if when they ask were did the firearm come from and you responded with the state where it came from...  i dont think you would have any issues.... right?
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ArmsInc Hawaii

Inspector

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2017, 06:34:04 AM »
The last C&R guns I registered with HPD, I brought the receipts of where the guns were purchased and all the information needed to confirm the date of manufacture as well as the BATF information. They didn't care as much about when it was manufactured as much as where I bought it. They actually accused me of not getting the gun from the online dealer I bought it from while they had the receipt in their hand. I suggested they go online and verify it and they did. Left me alone after that. Very weird.
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SCIENCE THAT CAN’T BE QUESTIONED IS PROPAGANDA!!!

spanner1751

Re: C&R Rifle not in the ATF C&R Book
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2017, 09:33:52 PM »
1. Print out page 18 of the BATF Curio & Relics list, highlight the line "All Original military bolt action and semiautomatic rifles mfd. between 1899 and 1946", and bring that page with you.
This page will suffice for most C&R military rifle and pistol registrations.
2. Bring a copy of your C&R FFL and original dealer receipt (which should indicate the model of the rifle).
The model of the rifle and importer should also be engraved somewhere on the rifle. 
HPD will probably keep the copies of the C&R list page and your C&R FFL and return the dealer receipt.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/guide/firearms-curios-or-relics-list-1972-2007-atf-p-530011/download

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