if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now (Read 10247 times)

ren

Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2017, 04:31:14 PM »
How can the yearbook staff have a page "dedicated to President Trump"?  Yearbook staffs always have a faculty advisor who reviews everything before printing. 

The school said:

Quote
"The administration was previously unaware of the students' statements in the yearbook.
The district does not support or otherwise endorse any disrespectful or politically based
statements that are in the yearbook and apologizes for the statements that were included,”
said a spokesperson for the district in a statement.

So, either the faculty member thought this was okay in clear violation of the district's stated policy, or the advisor went MIA letting the kids do anything they wanted.

Of course, the third possibility is, the advisor supported the dedication page and was fine allowing the students to express anti-Trump sentiments.

No matter what, the yearbook faculty advisor needs to be fired.  They had one function -- to make sure crap like this this never happens.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

littlemisssunshine

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2017, 05:17:42 PM »
Geez, the problem is from the school itself as they have allowed their students to give their opinion about Trump. A lot of people hate Trump for pete sake.
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
A network analyst at PetStreetMall, a place to find quality and affordable pet supplies.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2017, 05:21:35 PM »
Geez, the problem is from the school itself as they have allowed their students to give their opinion about Trump. A lot of people hate Trump for pete sake.

It's not about allowing the students to give an opinion.   Yearbooks are for everyone to have memories of HIGH SCHOOL, not anti-Trump death threats.

Even IF we agreed the yearbook can be anything the students want, the comment was over the line of what's considered "protected speech."  It should have never made it past the editors.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

rklapp

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2017, 05:39:01 PM »
So, either the faculty member thought this was okay in clear violation of the district's stated policy, or the advisor went MIA letting the kids do anything they wanted.
Of course, the third possibility is, the advisor supported the dedication page and was fine allowing the students to express anti-Trump sentiments.
No matter what, the yearbook faculty advisor needs to be fired.  They had one function -- to make sure crap like this this never happens.
That's probably the case. I remember a school that missed an inappropriate message printed in the yearbook (can't remember what it was). The school district had to reprint the yearbook. You can guess how many students actually turned in their old yearbooks for the new one.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2017, 05:49:05 PM »
That's probably the case. I remember a school that missed an inappropriate message printed in the yearbook (can't remember what it was). The school district had to reprint the yearbook. You can guess how many students actually turned in their old yearbooks for the new one.

More recently .... this school thinks a pro-Trump comment is inappropriate.

School administrators cancel yearbooks over Trump ‘build that wall’ senior quote

Quote
HAMLET, N.C. – Administrators at Richmond Early College High School distributed 22 pre-ordered yearbooks on
Tuesday, only to take them back hours later over “controversial” Donald Trump inspired quotes.

Shortly after school officials distributed the pre-ordered yearbooks, at least one person posted an image of senior
quotes published in the yearbook they found offensive, including one “build that wall” quote critics allege is racist,
the Richmond County Daily Journal.

“So Richmond county school system allowed this to be printed in their 2017 year book (sic),” Artney Ellerbe posted
online, along with a senior photo that’s accompanied by the Donald Trump quote. “I already knew this city was racist.
Get a court date you’ll find out. This doesn’t surprise me at all.”

How the heck is protecting our nation's borders against terrorists and criminals racist?  How is a wall or fence racist?  Walls are race-neutral.  They keep out everyone.

Don't we see walls, fences and bars on doors and windows in urban areas?  Are those people racist?    :wtf:


http://eagnews.org/school-administrators-cancel-yearbooks-over-trump-build-that-wall-senior-quote/
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

ren

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2017, 05:51:37 PM »
More recently .... this school thinks a pro-Trump comment is inappropriate.

School administrators cancel yearbooks over Trump ‘build that wall’ senior quote

How the heck is protecting our nation's borders against terrorists and criminals racist?  How is a wall or fence racist?  Walls are race-neutral.  They keep out everyone.

Don't we see walls, fences and bars on doors and windows in urban areas?  Are those people racist?    :wtf:


http://eagnews.org/school-administrators-cancel-yearbooks-over-trump-build-that-wall-senior-quote/

that's what sickening about the news.
Pres Trump could find a cure for cancer then the news would blame him for taking away funds for cancer research  :rofl:
Deeds Not Words

punaperson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 05:40:48 AM »
that's what sickening about the news.
Pres Trump could find a cure for cancer then the news would blame him for taking away funds for cancer research  :rofl:

PeaShooter

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 05:03:17 PM »
The particular speech at issue here is clearly protected speech under the First Amendment, regardless of whether one goes by the "official" interpretation, the "scholarly" interpretation, the "common" interpretation, or even the "actual and corrupt" interpretation. This is the school's fault for allowing discussion of Trump, or inserting discussion of Trump, possibly against the student's knowledge or will, according to the linked article.

President Obama had in fact shown greater support for free speech than President Trump. What did they each say about Kaepernick, again? (Though neither president actually did anything to strengthen free speech).

This is why I've lost a lot of respect for the politics of certain members on this message board. Not said members themselves, just some of their understandings or political views.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2017, 05:11:44 PM »
The particular speech at issue here is clearly protected speech under the First Amendment, regardless of whether one goes by the "official" interpretation, the "scholarly" interpretation, the "common" interpretation, or even the "actual and corrupt" interpretation. This is the school's fault for allowing discussion of Trump, or inserting discussion of Trump, possibly against the student's knowledge or will, according to the linked article.

President Obama had in fact shown greater support for free speech than President Trump. What did they each say about Kaepernick, again? (Though neither president actually did anything to strengthen free speech).

This is why I've lost a lot of respect for the politics of certain members on this message board. Not said members themselves, just some of their understandings or political views.

School yearbooks are not "Free Speech" platforms.  They are censored for appropriate content (or should have been).  Yes, the faculty advisor failed to enforce standards.

It is clearly NOT protected speech.  Whether the implied threat is a joke or a real threat is immaterial. If it's threatening or inciting violence, it would not be protected under the First Amendment. 

There are limits to what is protected speech.  Saying "it's political" isn't a catch-all for protected speech.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

PeaShooter

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2017, 05:32:31 PM »
You are correct that school yearbooks are not free speech "platforms" but once a topic has been allowed to be published, in this case by the will of the school and not the student, full free speech protections kick in for the student. The issue of failure to censor is also in this case an accusation against the school, not the student. So if any punishment is warranted here it is for the school, not the student (jailed by Trump).

Furthermore, the speech at question contains no threat. Re-read the quote. "I would like to behead him. I do not like him” is very different from "I will behead him" which would be closer to a threat. Even the latter quote would not go far enough to be considered a true threat, unprotected by the First Amendment, but we don't need to argue over that here.

eyeeatingfish

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2017, 08:00:56 PM »
I doubt he would be in jail. Maybe on a watch list but not in jail. The student said he wanted to behead Trump, not that he would or should.

I worked on our school yearbook for one year. I can see how something small like a quote would have been missed by the faculty advisor.

My school yearbook wouldn't let me put my picture in dressed in fatigues and holding a paintball gun so free speech is definitely not the issue in question. They can make certain guidelines about style that would be vague enough to give them freedom to disallow certain comments without running into free speech.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2017, 08:09:53 PM »
You are correct that school yearbooks are not free speech "platforms" but once a topic has been allowed to be published, in this case by the will of the school and not the student, full free speech protections kick in for the student. The issue of failure to censor is also in this case an accusation against the school, not the student. So if any punishment is warranted here it is for the school, not the student (jailed by Trump).

Furthermore, the speech at question contains no threat. Re-read the quote. "I would like to behead him. I do not like him” is very different from "I will behead him" which would be closer to a threat. Even the latter quote would not go far enough to be considered a true threat, unprotected by the First Amendment, but we don't need to argue over that here.

The entire "Trump Comments" section was against the school district's policy, according to the article.  As such, there are no "full free speech rights" that "kick in" just because the yearbook staff and faculty advisor allowed it to be printed.  They were in error.  The student made the statement, "I didn't expect the comment to show up in the yearbook."  That pretty much quashes any anticipated free speech argument by the student.

Do you really think your semantics argument flies?  The Secret Service is already investigating the student who made the comment, so your premise is wrong based on actual facts. 

If the student had posted on Facebook, "I'd like to blow up my school tomorrow and kill everyone who's bullied me," do you honestly believe the police will say, "He typed 'I'd like to blow up the school'.  Since he didn't post 'I will blow it up,' there's no reason to investigate."  I don't think so.

The statement has to be investigated.  LE can't err on the side of misinterpretation when a veiled threat or implied threat is made.  All threats are taken seriously nowadays.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

PeaShooter

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2017, 12:20:19 AM »
Eyeeatingfish, the school actually did the right thing in regards to free speech law, by allowing that statement to be published, since they (possibly against district policy) decided to feature a student page about Trump. It would be viewpoint discrimination to allow only positive (or only negative) comments about him. Now what they could have done, according to the "scholarly" interpretation of free speech law in the US, is decide not to talk about Trump at all, as that would only be content discrimination.

Flapp, the student has First Amendment protection because her actual words are not a threat, even more so because they are political and intended to be private. You are thought policing, which is the ultimate intrusion into civil freedom. This does not mean to say that your muddled arguments could not win in court. In fact they could, as you are on the right side! The "corrupt" interpretation and truth of judicial law is that the big guy typically wins when he really wants to. Our government has indeed punished people by inserting words into their mouths and then punishing them for concocted thought crimes. Unfortunately, people like you make it all the easier for them.

Heavies

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2017, 04:04:55 AM »
Wonder what would happen if he said, "I don't like my classmates, I'd like to behead them"....  or better yet what if he said, "I really support Americans Rights to own firearms".....  probably would have swat come down hard.

This B.S. has nothing to do with the first amendment.  Don't be deluded. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2017, 10:54:13 AM »
Eyeeatingfish, the school actually did the right thing in regards to free speech law, by allowing that statement to be published, since they (possibly against district policy) decided to feature a student page about Trump. It would be viewpoint discrimination to allow only positive (or only negative) comments about him. Now what they could have done, according to the "scholarly" interpretation of free speech law in the US, is decide not to talk about Trump at all, as that would only be content discrimination.

Flapp, the student has First Amendment protection because her actual words are not a threat, even more so because they are political and intended to be private. You are thought policing, which is the ultimate intrusion into civil freedom. This does not mean to say that your muddled arguments could not win in court. In fact they could, as you are on the right side! The "corrupt" interpretation and truth of judicial law is that the big guy typically wins when he really wants to. Our government has indeed punished people by inserting words into their mouths and then punishing them for concocted thought crimes. Unfortunately, people like you make it all the easier for them.

Believe what you want.  Freedom of speech is not going to protect all speech even i it's political.  Violence is not protected speech.  Beheading is about violence.  Doesn't take a Constitutional Scholar or "being on the right side" to understand there is a line speech can't cross and qualify as protected.

Parsing of words is not going to tell you what was in the speaker's mind when it was said.  Hence, the investigation.  I'm sure the kid won't go to prison for threatening Trump, unless the Secret Service find large knives, a plane ticket to DC and drawings of him actually beheading Trump and others.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

PeaShooter

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2017, 02:16:04 PM »
Freedom of speech is not guaranteed to actually protect this student. It is merely supposed to. I have said all along that the First Amendment in the USA is in truth nonexistent. It's government propaganda, but it's also the fault of the masses for accepting it, as they do not support free speech or thought either. The responses in this thread illustrate this.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 02:22:47 PM by PeaShooter »

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2017, 02:24:21 PM »
Freedom of speech will not actually protect this student. It is merely supposed to. I have said all along that the First Amendment in the USA is in truth nonexistent. It's government propaganda, but it's also the fault of the masses for accepting it, as they do not support free speech and thought either. The responses in this thread illustrate this.

Rights are not absolute.  For instance, if you are arrested at 4AM talking on your roof with a bullhorn about Liberals ruining the country, that will not be protected speech. 

The standard is, as long as your freedoms don't encroach on anothers rights, then you are free to exercise that right.. 

"Your right to express your opinion stops where your fist ends and my nose begins."

The student has a right to express her opinion.  She does not have the right to have that opinion printed in every copy of the schools yearbook paid for by all the students.  Politics aside, it doesn't reflect well on the school to allow this type of comment in their yearbook.  The school has full editorial control.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

PeaShooter

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2017, 02:30:20 PM »
She indeed does not have right to have her opinion printed in the yearbook, but she isn't the one who did that. The school did, so any punishment for that should be on them. I don't have any disagreement with punishing the school.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: if it was President Obama that student would be in jail by now
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2017, 03:14:47 PM »
You are correct that school yearbooks are not free speech "platforms" but once a topic has been allowed to be published, in this case by the will of the school and not the student, full free speech protections kick in for the student. The issue of failure to censor is also in this case an accusation against the school, not the student. So if any punishment is warranted here it is for the school, not the student (jailed by Trump).

Furthermore, the speech at question contains no threat. Re-read the quote. "I would like to behead him. I do not like him” is very different from "I will behead him" which would be closer to a threat. Even the latter quote would not go far enough to be considered a true threat, unprotected by the First Amendment, but we don't need to argue over that here.

She indeed does not have right to have her opinion printed in the yearbook, but she isn't the one who did that. The school did, so any punishment for that should be on them. I don't have any disagreement with punishing the school.

 :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

I think you're arguing about who is culpable for the comment being printed, and that the student has no liability in the statement being included in the yearbook.

There were no details given on the method used to collect comments.  If she made that comment online as part of a yearbook website, then she is indeed culpable.  If she was asked the question out of context and her answer included without her knowing it would be, then she's not to be punished.

Your bantering back and forth about First Amendment and how this site somehow proves your point are all irrelevant, if I have this figured out correctly.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw