New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports (Read 8502 times)

suka

New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« on: June 10, 2017, 07:43:57 PM »
Special Ordered  a new 7.5" pistol barrel without the ports drilled. Perfect for a Non Semi actioned AR pistol build which will still allow a detachable 10rd magazine.
Just need to buy another pistol AR lower now.

 :shake:



rklapp

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2017, 09:29:21 PM »
I'm confused. How legal is this?
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2017, 09:39:28 PM »
I'm confused. How legal is this?

If it has no gas ports, then it's not a semiautomatic pistol.  That negates the "assault pistol" definition, according to HRS 134.

Quote
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following characteristics:

     (1)  An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

     (3)  A shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;

     (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

     (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or

     (6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.

rklapp

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2017, 09:46:05 PM »
If it has no gas ports, then it's not a semiautomatic pistol.  That negates the "assault pistol" definition, according to HRS 134.
Interesting. So what pistol do you make out of this that isn't an assault pistol?
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

Flapp_Jackson

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2017, 09:51:15 PM »
Interesting. So what pistol do you make out of this that isn't an assault pistol?

There are only two other options:  single shot and manual cycling w/magazine.
Liberal:  Someone who is passionately concerned with issues about which they know absolutely nothing.

suka

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2017, 11:02:10 PM »
There are only two other options:  single shot and manual cycling w/magazine.

You are right!

eyeeatingfish

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2017, 08:29:13 PM »
Interesting. So what pistol do you make out of this that isn't an assault pistol?

You could make a pump action AR pistol. Someone already makes one but it isn't terrible short. I haven't been able to find a pump kit so you can make your own though.

London808

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2017, 07:34:55 PM »
Just put a bullet button and your good to go.  I have asked both HPD and the AG, HPD says they dont have a definition. So anything the guy at the counter tells you is BS, The AG says they have not provided a defintion to HPD.

detachable is different to serviceable.  The engine in your car is not detachable , BUT if you undo some bolts you can remove it to service it.

See e-mails below. This is not legal advice meant to be used.



From HPD

This email was received via the HPD website. It is being forwarded to you for your perusal and disposition.

Name: Andrew Roberts

Email: a_roberts_84@yahoo.co.uk

Phone:

Message: As per HRS §134-1  Definitions.

How does HPD define  a detachable magazine



Aloha,

The Honolulu Police Department does not define the definition of detachable magazine.  The Hawaii Legislature and the Attorney Generals office would define the detachable magazine.  HRS 134-1 refers to characteristics for an Assault Pistol. 

(1)  An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

HPD Firearms Unit


FROM THE AG



Dear Mr. Roberts,
 
I am in receipt of your email below.  Thank you for your inquiry.
 
In regards to a “detachable magazine,” you are correct that HRS section 134-1 defines “Assault pistol” to mean a semiautomatic pistol which accepts a detachable magazine.  Additionally it goes on to say, “and which has two or more of the following characteristics:
     (1)  An ammunition magazine which attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;
     (3)  A shroud which is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and which permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;
     (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
     (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or
     (6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;
but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code §921(16) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations 178.11.”
 
While the Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” I cannot comment whether Hawaii would mimic the definition used by the ATF.  If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation.  Furthermore, I am prohibited by statute to offer a legal opinion pursuant to HRS section 26-7.
 
We regret we are unable to help you.
 
Regards,
 
Karen A. Droscoski



Thank you for your prompt reply, Perhaps i can rephrase my question in a way that your office can answer my question. As the cheif legal office for the state, responsible for enforcing violations of state law, How dose your department define the term "Detachable Magazine" in regards to HRS 134-1.



Mr. Roberts,
 
As mentioned earlier, while the Hawaii Revised Statutes does not explicitly define “detachable magazine,” I cannot comment whether my office would mimic the definition used by the ATF or provide another definition.  If a case arose wherein a definition is necessary, the facts would be assessed and dealt with on a case by case situation.  Furthermore, I am prohibited by statute to offer a legal opinion pursuant to HRS section 26-7.
 
Regards,
 
Karen


Well i am trying to follow the law but no one seems to know what the law is. The law uses an undefined term, HPD is telling me that the AG (your office) decides what that term means but you are telling me that you do not have a definition and will only define what it is after some one has been accused of a crime. How does that make any sense ? How can some one follow a law when your saying your department makes it up as you go along ?




Mr. Roberts,
 
Unfortunately, the Attorney General cannot analyze, or provide legal advice to private citizens.  As provided by statute:
 
The department shall administer and render state legal services, including furnishing of written legal opinions to the governor, legislature, and such state departments and officers as the governor may direct; represent the State in all civil actions in which the State is a party; approve as to legality and form all documents relating to the acquisition of any land or interest in lands by the State; and, unless otherwise provided by law, prosecute cases involving violations of state laws and cases involving agreements, uniform laws, or other matters which are enforceable in the courts of the State. The attorney general shall be charged with such other duties and have such authority as heretofore provided by common law or statute.  Section 26-7, Hawaii Revised Statutes.
 
I regret that we are unable to help you.

OK, new question.

Has the Attorney Generals office ever provided to the Honolulu Police department a definition of a "Detachable Magazine" In deference to HRS 134-1. If so what was that definition


OK, new question.

Has the Attorney Generals office ever provided to the Honolulu Police department a definition of a "Detachable Magazine" In deference to HRS 134-1. If so what was that definition

[/b]


Not to my knowledge or that I’m aware of.












 
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

suka

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2017, 10:26:48 PM »
THE ATF DOES NOT AND NEVER HAVE HAD A DEFINITION FOR "DETACHABLE MAGAZINES". I have that statement in writing via an ATF  letterhead !

The Hawaii AG and HPD is full of it in every way.


London808

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2017, 06:49:37 AM »
THE ATF DOES NOT AND NEVER HAVE HAD A DEFINITION FOR "DETACHABLE MAGAZINES". I have that statement in writing via an ATF  letterhead !

The Hawaii AG and HPD is full of it in every way.

Why do you think I asked it in that way :-)

If they said yes then I win, if they say no then I win.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

rklapp

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2017, 08:43:35 AM »
Everybody is a winner on this forum!!!
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

changemyoil66

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2017, 09:14:37 AM »
It amazes me that the people who decide if you broke the law or not, cannot tell you prior to if something is against the law.

I have emailed Karen also about the definition of "residence".  Does it mean inside my walls and door, or does it mean my property address (parking lot, yard, garage, etc...).  Got the same BS response.  Like if someone ask where do  you live, you give the street number and name.  You don't give the street number and name and say the structure that is at that location.

eyeeatingfish

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2017, 08:28:59 PM »
THE ATF DOES NOT AND NEVER HAVE HAD A DEFINITION FOR "DETACHABLE MAGAZINES". I have that statement in writing via an ATF  letterhead !

The Hawaii AG and HPD is full of it in every way.

The grey area just gives them leeway to make a judgement call. Depending on who makes the call this can be good or bad.

dwela

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2017, 09:32:42 AM »
Suka, where did you find that barrel?

Any problem with registering a bare ar15 pistol lower here in the People's Republic of Hawaii?

suka

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2017, 09:43:20 AM »
Not a real problem if you read up on the law relating to the assault pistol and jumping trough HPD hoops.

The barrel is from a cut down full length barrel; from a private individual on the mainland with a lathe.

dwela

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2017, 10:50:48 AM »
Thanks, i'll check with ADCO if anyone has them they would.

davek42

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #16 on: July 07, 2017, 10:05:31 PM »
If you build it they will come, most likely with silver brackets that lock behind your back.

6716J

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2018, 03:03:30 PM »
If it has no gas ports, then it's not a semiautomatic pistol.  That negates the "assault pistol" definition, according to HRS 134.

Not necessarily so... .22lr, 9mm, .45ACP, etc. all operate in blowback so no gas tube/port required.

I believe the key is the magazine issue. Bullet button and/or the action opening gizmos which prohibit magazine changes without the use of a "tool" or opening the action. While I know that other states laws don't mean squat, they can be used as precedence for use.

CA - Penal Code section 12276.1: (a) "detachable magazine" means any ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from the firearm with neither disassembly of the firearm action nor use of a tool being required.
MD - MD Code, Criminal Law, § 4-301 (Formerly cited as MD CODE Art. 27, § 36H-1) - Detachable magazine: (f) “Detachable magazine” means an ammunition feeding device that can be removed readily from a firearm without requiring disassembly of the firearm action or without the use of a tool, including a bullet or cartridge.


But the flipside to getting the AR pistol "legal" in Hawaii is getting the 30 rounders converted to 10 rounds that are not "readily converted" which is another undefined term...sheesh
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Heavies

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2018, 09:40:58 PM »
On the other various AR pistol threads HPD wouldn't accept it unless the mag was visibly welded to the receiver. They would not accept a bullet button or even a mag inserted and the mag release permanently disabled.

Is that their definition?  ???

6716J

Re: New AR Pistol barrel w/o ports
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2018, 10:31:00 AM »
On the other various AR pistol threads HPD wouldn't accept it unless the mag was visibly welded to the receiver. They would not accept a bullet button or even a mag inserted and the mag release permanently disabled.

Is that their definition?  ???
I guess it depends on who's at the desk that day.

Best bet would have a stripped lower and register that. Then build it. Have a copy of HRS 134-1 along with copies of other states statutes with definitions for clarity if/when ever asked.

If it's not specifically defined it's not defined as not compliant. And having other legal definitions handy helps.

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I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.