Traded my M&P shield no safety for a S&W bodyguard 38 revolver hammerless DAO because I wasn't comfortable carrying with 1 in the chamber with a single action trigger.
I gave up 2 rounds, but gained confidence.
(Wanted a Ruger LCR, but traded with a good 2A member and now friend)
Polymer framed revolvers are flyweight and shoot great recoil wise.

To me concealed carry is basically a belly gun.
I don't plan on shooting more than 7 yards. 10 yards max with a concealed carry weapon.

25 yards at Kokohead is ridiculous. But that's another topic.

For those afraid of carrying a striker fired gun with one in the chamber, are you afraid of something jarring the gun hard enough that the firing pin will hit the primer? Or the trigger somehow being activated in the holster? Just trying to understand here.

I have heard of incidents of pocket carry without a holster or one of those trigger guard cover things and the gun accidentally going off. Haven’t heard of any issues with quality holsters that cover/protects the trigger and trigger guard.

If one prefers to carry with an empty chamber, for whatever reason, to each their own. Be it comfort level, scenarios they envision when they would need the gun, etc. I would just encourage people put thought into it and at least try experiencing what it takes to draw, rack slide then shoot. I’m not big on the 21 foot rule other than that it shocked me how quickly someone can close that distance the first time I experienced that demonstration.

Shoot a person 21 feet away from you.
Be prepared to hire a good lawyer.  ( and triple mortgage your house )  (active shooter situation excepted)
DAO doesn't go off unless you meant it. ( or a double action de-cocked pistol)
Striker fired unlocked and loaded, be sure you have training.
30 feet, finger off the trigger, and then get on point. that's tough.
Definitely need training.
Maybe that's the whole point.

Just my minimal trained opinion.

And no-sense carrying with an empty chamber. IMO.

Yes the "21ft rule" would be very difficult if not in condition 1 and drawing from concealment. I've successfully done it with moving targets coming directly at you with 3 shots. It would be difficult to get off just one clean shot during the same time frame if having to add racking the slide into the equation. So difficult, I would not trust my life on it.

I can think of some scenarios where carrying unchambered, as opposed to not carrying at all, would be beneficial. In a direct attack, not chambered would be very bad.

I would always carry chambered and concealed. I can't think of many "everyday civilian situations" where I would carry open as opposed to concealed.

Shoot a person 21 feet away from you.
Be prepared to hire a good lawyer.  ( and triple mortgage your house )  (active shooter situation excepted)
DAO doesn't go off unless you meant it. ( or a double action de-cocked pistol)
Striker fired unlocked and loaded, be sure you have training.
30 feet, finger off the trigger, and then get on point. that's tough.
Definitely need training.
Maybe that's the whole point.

Just my minimal trained opinion.

And no-sense carrying with an empty chamber. IMO.

The 21-foot rule doesn't say to shoot someone at 21 feet. 

An attacker with a deadly weapon other than a firearm can close the 21 foot distance and potentially kill you in about the same amount of time that it tales most people to recognize the threat, draw, and be on target to fire a concealed handgun.  Anywhere within the 21 foot radius already has an advantage.  Some training groups are considering increasing that to a longer radius given real-world examples.

Therefore, you'd be shooting at whatever distance remains after you fire -- not 21 feet.  If you can shoot him at the 21 foot distance, then you're already on target and not at that disadvantage if he runs at you.

Really?
Thanks Mr. Obvious. I didn't know that.

You've watched the real videos.
Most attackers aren't crazed banshees that pull out their weapon 7-10 yards away and run at the victim at full sprint.
(In Chinatown maybe)
That's why my carry gun would be a belly gun snubby revolver, double action trigger, big enough caliber.
Because I don't train enough to carry a striker fired cocked and unlocked pistol. (Safety not considered)

But I still say whatever you carry should have one in the pipe.
Because in most scenarios, you won't have time under stress to rack the slide unless you train vigilantly.
Eugene probably could. He's amazing with a weapon. So I'm not saying it can't be done.

Moral of the story. Train.

Really?
Thanks Mr. Obvious. I didn't know that.

You've watched the real videos.
Most attackers aren't crazed banshees that pull out their weapon 7-10 yards away and run at the victim at full sprint.
(In Chinatown maybe)
That's why my carry gun would be a belly gun snubby revolver, double action trigger, big enough caliber.
Because I don't train enough to carry a striker fired cocked and unlocked pistol. (Safety not considered)

But I still say whatever you carry should have one in the pipe.
Because in most scenarios, you won't have time under stress to rack the slide unless you train vigilantly.
Eugene probably could. He's amazing with a weapon. So I'm not saying it can't be done.

Moral of the story. Train.

Once again, you missed the point of the 21 foot rule.

If the attacker comes at you within that distance -- 7 yards, 4 yards, 2 yards -- you are at a disadvantage if your firearm is holstered.  It's not saying "If the person pulls a knife and runs at you from 7 or 10 yards, you should shoot him".

If you have your "belly gun" holstered after the attack starts and it's inside your "most scenarios" distance, you need to know what to do.

I don't want to be even more obvious since you have no intention of having a mature discussion with me.  But your OBVIOUS misunderstanding of the entire purpose of the "rule" means you should be less sarcastic and more serious about your replies.  You might learn something new.

I can understand why Mike may not want to keep one in the chamber.   

Keeping one in the chamber does increase your odds in defending yourself over a wider range of situations but it also increases the chance of a nd. 

You weigh the various risks and choose the option that works for you. 

That guy that shot himself and his wife....I consider him lucky.  He could have instead shot/killed a kid by mistake and have to live with it for the rest of his life.

Shoot a person 21 feet away from you.
Be prepared to hire a good lawyer.  ( and triple mortgage your house )  (active shooter situation excepted)
DAO doesn't go off unless you meant it. ( or a double action de-cocked pistol)
Striker fired unlocked and loaded, be sure you have training.
30 feet, finger off the trigger, and then get on point. that's tough.
Definitely need training.
Maybe that's the whole point.

Just my minimal trained opinion.

And no-sense carrying with an empty chamber. IMO.

Not following your train of thought regarding the 21 feet and being prepeared to hire a good lawyer. I’d assume if I shot someone in self defense, I’d need a lawyer. No matter the distance.

I haven’t had my striker fired guns go off “unless I meant it”. Yeah, I’ve handled some striker fired guns with pretty light triggers. That said, I generally don’t mess with the triggers on my guns.

Seems like your mind has run wild on a number of things that could go wrong. That said, many here seem to be envisioning a range of scenarios for deadly force encounters. I would argue that you have no control and the encounter will dictate that to you. Had a similar conversation with a cop friend of mine. He stated that if he felt the need to wear his rifle plates, that he had no intention of going hands on and this saw no need to train hand to hand while wearing plates. I pointed out how off balance and cumbersome he felt when he first wore plates. Even simple things like getting up from on his back was more difficult. Anyways, the point was stuff can happen and best to not be the first time he experienced it when he was needing to wrestle with someone that wanted to harm/kill him.

Yes the "21ft rule" would be very difficult if not in condition 1 and drawing from concealment. I've successfully done it with moving targets coming directly at you with 3 shots. It would be difficult to get off just one clean shot during the same time frame if having to add racking the slide into the equation. So difficult, I would not trust my life on it.

I can think of some scenarios where carrying unchambered, as opposed to not carrying at all, would be beneficial. In a direct attack, not chambered would be very bad.

I would always carry chambered and concealed. I can't think of many "everyday civilian situations" where I would carry open as opposed to concealed.

I mostly refer to the 21 foot rule as something that people think they can or know what will happen until they see for themselves how quickly someone can close that distance. Add to that the fact that unless you hit the CNS or other switch, the person is likely to be on top of you, even if you hit the attacker. That people tend to think that “I have a gun, so I’m good (safe)”.

Open carry is a whole other conversation. I agree hay I can’t think of many everyday situations where I’d want to open carry.

Good points Drck.

Come out and do some Krav Maga on Tuesday night with my group.  Hand to hand defensive training is a good supplement for a CCW.

https://www.meetup.com/HawaiiGGG/events/245073270/

So for those that may not know about the 21' rule, it is not some made up distance. How I was taught, it refers to the Tueller Drill. I've heard the distance may come into play for a legal lawasuit. I'm not a lawyer and can not confirm that.


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from what i remember, cops are taught something similar, if not the same rule.  It's why police is extremely leery of letting someone with a melee weapon or knife get anywhere near them, and if people dont follow instructions to stop, the cops will shoot, despite public outcry about how far away he was, or he "only" had a knife, etc.  The closer the distance, the less advantage the firearm has over other types of weapons and even someone unarmed.  And once the distance is closed completely, I believe a knife weillder holds the statistical advantage of winning the fight.

I know many LEOs. A few have mentioned they fear a knife attack over most other threats.

Yes 21' may seem far to many. I believe most will change their mind once attempting this drill. 1 1/2 seconds is not a lot.


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Law enforcement found 21ft is too short.  30ft is the standard now.

Odds are you'll be 5ft to 10ft away in a 1 on 1 encounter. 

Odds are you'll be 5ft to 10ft away in a 1 on 1 encounter.

I have a stat that shows distance of Police shooting from 1981-1990. 392 shootings were from 0-5', 135 from 6-10', 90 from 11-20 and so on. Keep in mind this is Police and not CCW Civilians but still comparable. I got this info from a booklet I got from a defensive class I took so I don't know the reference. We focused on 3-10' during the course.

Thank you all for your input.  It really helps with my thought process moving forward 

For those afraid of carrying a striker fired gun with one in the chamber, are you afraid of something jarring the gun hard enough that the firing pin will hit the primer? Or the trigger somehow being activated in the holster? Just trying to understand here.

I have heard of incidents of pocket carry without a holster or one of those trigger guard cover things and the gun accidentally going off. Haven’t heard of any issues with quality holsters that cover/protects the trigger and trigger guard.

If one prefers to carry with an empty chamber, for whatever reason, to each their own. Be it comfort level, scenarios they envision when they would need the gun, etc. I would just encourage people put thought into it and at least try experiencing what it takes to draw, rack slide then shoot. I’m not big on the 21 foot rule other than that it shocked me how quickly someone can close that distance the first time I experienced that demonstration.

My biggest fear is that I have a 5 and 3 year old that still love crawling all over me.  I have a concealed knife in a kydex sheath and there was one incident where my son dislodged it slightly when crawling on me.  It didnt come out much but enough to give me a small slice.  My fear is that they dislodge the gun somehow and their fingers get in the trigger or something gets lodged in the trigger guard and it goes off when I push it back in.

Prior thinking was that a safety would take that away as would a da/sa since I would thumb the hammer when holstering

Now, when I go to the mainland, it is more often than not that I’m traveling without my kids, so that worry should be nullified.  Also, by the time we do start taking them more years in the future, chances are they will not be jumping all over me.

My biggest fear is that I have a 5 and 3 year old that still love crawling all over me.  I have a concealed knife in a kydex sheath and there was one incident where my son dislodged it slightly when crawling on me.  It didnt come out much but enough to give me a small slice.  My fear is that they dislodge the gun somehow and their fingers get in the trigger or something gets lodged in the trigger guard and it goes off when I push it back in.

Prior thinking was that a safety would take that away as would a da/sa since I would thumb the hammer when holstering

Now, when I go to the mainland, it is more often than not that I’m traveling without my kids, so that worry should be nullified.  Also, by the time we do start taking them more years in the future, chances are they will not be jumping all over me.

If I was in that situation, I'd probably opt for (what someone mentioned above), a 7 shot revolver with 1 cylinder empty (the one rotated into alignment when trigger is pulled).  In the event you need to, pull the trigger 2x to get the first round off.  Greatly reduces the chances of an accident with an accidental trigger pull.