GOP Tax Bill (Read 112314 times)

hvybarrels

GOP Tax Bill
« on: December 04, 2017, 10:17:40 AM »
As someone who itemizes a lot of deductions this really sucks. It's also frustrating to see the permanent tax cuts for the ultra wealthy while everyone else's are only temporary. Is there a possible tax revolt in our future? Probably, but throw it on the pile of disasters that normally accompany an empire in decline. This is what it looks like folks.

In the meantime it's a good idea to get a handle on the subject if you are self employed because next year is going to be a big challenge. Time to call your guy and make some moves before the calendar flips.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gop-tax-bill-year-end-tax-plans/

“A Communist system can be recognized by the fact that it spares the criminals and criminalizes the political opponent.”   -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

rklapp

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2017, 11:14:47 AM »
Next step is to reconcile the Senate and House versions, so we won't know what the final bill that Trump will sign will be until maybe Christmas. Per the King Rule, the faster a bill is passed, the worse it is and this bill went through the Senate extremely fast. As Senator King said, no municipality would make changes to a dog leash law in this way.
Yahh! Freedom and justice shall always prevail over tyranny, Babysitter Girl!
https://ronsreloading.wordpress.com/

hvybarrels

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 10:57:11 AM »
450 pages. Nobody had time to read it. Illegible notes scrawled in the corner. All kinds of pork and giveaways. Scheduled just in time for the holidays so nobody is paying attention. Something tells me this isn't being done to promote small businesses.

You better watch out
You better not cry
You better not pout
They're going in dry
“A Communist system can be recognized by the fact that it spares the criminals and criminalizes the political opponent.”   -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

zippz

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 11:28:23 AM »
I wonder why politicians do this, rush it through so people don't read the bad stuff?  Obamacare went through the same way.  They had a year to write it and have everyone review it.

eyeeatingfish

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2017, 08:17:52 AM »
This who tax bill fiasco is really giving a bad name to republicans. This is not the tax overhaul we envisioned or wanted. There are no drastic changes, no simplification. Not what we were promised, not what we asked for.

Democrats are slamming us over this, and rightly so. I don't think this is even in line with what Trump had promised, but it isn't just Trump being bad it is most of the republicans in congress!

2ahavvaii

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2017, 10:34:44 AM »
As someone who itemizes a lot of deductions this really sucks. It's also frustrating to see the permanent tax cuts for the ultra wealthy while everyone else's are only temporary. Is there a possible tax revolt in our future? Probably, but throw it on the pile of disasters that normally accompany an empire in decline. This is what it looks like folks.

In the meantime it's a good idea to get a handle on the subject if you are self employed because next year is going to be a big challenge. Time to call your guy and make some moves before the calendar flips.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gop-tax-bill-year-end-tax-plans/

I feel the same way.  Same boat as you.

It's basically another giveaway to the ultra rich, the same as previous tax cuts by both democrats and republicans for the past few decades.

eyeeatingfish

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2017, 12:13:31 AM »
I feel the same way.  Same boat as you.

It's basically another giveaway to the ultra rich, the same as previous tax cuts by both democrats and republicans for the past few decades.

The more I learn about the intricacies of the bill the more I am dismayed about republicans and Trump. I never liked Trump to begin with but at least figured he might pass things like tax reform and we would see things getting done. Well he has been a failure and our congress is filled with rubbish. I don't have the best outlook for the USA right now.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2017, 05:54:26 PM »
The more I learn about the intricacies of the bill the more I am dismayed about republicans and Trump. I never liked Trump to begin with but at least figured he might pass things like tax reform and we would see things getting done. Well he has been a failure and our congress is filled with rubbish. I don't have the best outlook for the USA right now.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

2ahavvaii

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2017, 06:02:26 PM »
The more I learn about the intricacies of the bill the more I am dismayed about republicans and Trump. I never liked Trump to begin with but at least figured he might pass things like tax reform and we would see things getting done. Well he has been a failure and our congress is filled with rubbish. I don't have the best outlook for the USA right now.

Like I said, it's not only trump.  But his tax policy appears to be a bigger open ended cash grab for the rich than obama's policys were.

Because most people dont know or want to be bothered with tax stuff, they'll flaunt these tax cuts like its some huge benefit to the middle class, but in reality, it's making rich people much richer. The changes made over the past few decades is one of the main reasons why wealth inequality is skyrocketing in the US.  It basically makes it much easier to compound the wealth you already have at a much quicker rate compared to low/middle class that doesn't have a huge asset base to compound off of.

special low rates for dividends - who has the money to even make a lot of passive money with dividends?  Rich people
Eliminate AMT - helps rich people
Cut top tax rate - used to be almost 50% i think. helps rich people
Cut corporate tax rate - rich people own the most stocks, benefits rich people
Increase of estate tax exemption and lowering of top tax rate - helps rich people

eyeeatingfish

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 06:34:38 PM »

eyeeatingfish

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2017, 06:38:41 PM »
Like I said, it's not only trump.  But his tax policy appears to be a bigger open ended cash grab for the rich than obama's policys were.

Because most people dont know or want to be bothered with tax stuff, they'll flaunt these tax cuts like its some huge benefit to the middle class, but in reality, it's making rich people much richer. The changes made over the past few decades is one of the main reasons why wealth inequality is skyrocketing in the US.  It basically makes it much easier to compound the wealth you already have at a much quicker rate compared to low/middle class that doesn't have a huge asset base to compound off of.

special low rates for dividends - who has the money to even make a lot of passive money with dividends?  Rich people
Eliminate AMT - helps rich people
Cut top tax rate - used to be almost 50% i think. helps rich people
Cut corporate tax rate - rich people own the most stocks, benefits rich people
Increase of estate tax exemption and lowering of top tax rate - helps rich people

Oh absolutely, most of the blame involves congress and not Trump. IIRC all tax bills need to originate in the House so ultimately it is on them. Trump is just failing to keep his promise because he isn't really trying influence congress to get what he promised, but again, he could demand what he promised all day long but if our representatives don't do anything then there is nothing he could do.

I was kind of excited when one candidate wanted to have taxes be on a postcard. I never considered that a real possibility but something like two pages would be very reasonable. Simple tax rates for all types of income whether dividends, gambling, work income, etc. Overall lower tax rate on individuals and companies accompanied with a cut in government spending to match.

hvybarrels

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 11:01:52 PM »
So I talked with my tax guy today and his take is that while Joe Paycheck with a mortgage is getting hosed, small business owners will get a bit of relief since some of those corporate kickbacks also work for us. While the simplified process means a bad news for H&R and Liberty tax, his biz will be fine since he deals with the more complicated stuff anyway. He's not a fan of the whole package, though, especially when it comes to making the wealth inequality problem much worse. That and the way the increases are tied to inflation means in a few years normal working stiffs will be feeling a serious squeeze (and then a pop as the standard deduction sunsets).

I could be completely wrong about this stuff so educate yourselves and don't take my word for it.
“A Communist system can be recognized by the fact that it spares the criminals and criminalizes the political opponent.”   -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

ren

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2017, 07:06:34 AM »
I don't know why there is much focus on the wealthy. They don't use most of the social services. It is a socialist concept to make the wealthy pay more than their share of things. Why punish them for being successful? I believe in a flat tax rate for everyone.
Deeds Not Words

hvybarrels

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2017, 08:50:02 AM »
I don't know why there is much focus on the wealthy. They don't use most of the social services. It is a socialist concept to make the wealthy pay more than their share of things. Why punish them for being successful? I believe in a flat tax rate for everyone.

There are a couple reasons. When poor people get money they spend it, and when rich people get money they invest it. The former promotes healthy economic activity while the latter ties up wealth in speculative bubbles like Bitcoin, real estate, art, etc. Henry Ford, for all his faults, understood the importance of paying his employees enough to buy his cars. Today's wealthy are so consumed by greed that they are undermining the social fabric on which their wealth depends.

And many of them do accept welfare that dwarfs social services through juicy subsidies and regulatory capture. What is the military industrial complex after all than welfare for weapons manufacturers?
“A Communist system can be recognized by the fact that it spares the criminals and criminalizes the political opponent.”   -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2017, 10:54:22 AM »
There are a couple reasons. When poor people get money they spend it, and when rich people get money they invest it. The former promotes healthy economic activity while the latter ties up wealth in speculative bubbles like Bitcoin, real estate, art, etc. Henry Ford, for all his faults, understood the importance of paying his employees enough to buy his cars. Today's wealthy are so consumed by greed that they are undermining the social fabric on which their wealth depends.

And many of them do accept welfare that dwarfs social services through juicy subsidies and regulatory capture. What is the military industrial complex after all than welfare for weapons manufacturers?

I'm not sure you know what "investing" means.

Investing creates capital for businesses to operate and expand.  That pays for labor, employee benefits, taxes (ever hear of the higher capital gains tax rate?), and so on.  Businesses operate on revenue to a fixed level.  Infusions of capital allow for expansion, which means more jobs/better jobs for the workers.

The so-called "greed" of the wealthy is what drives economic growth just as much as employees spending and consuming.  What does kill growth is more government programs.  Government is a consumer of wealth.  Gov't produces nothing and adds zero to the GDP.  When Gov't gets $1 from "the wealthy", it distributes less than that to the beneficiaries.

Capital drives capitalism.  Without the entrepreneurs and investors, there would be no Ford, GM, GE, Amazon, Google, Starbucks, Taco Bell, Apple and other large, nationwide companies to pay good wages and benefits. 

As for being able to buy what you help make, that's not an income issue.  It's a tax issue.  My last calculation said roughly 50% of my income goes to taxes at some level -- income taxes for state and federal, Social Security, Medicare, State Health Insurance for uninsured, sales/excise, gasoline, roads, and pretty much any fees I pay to register vehicles, bikes, pets, etc, etc.  As consumption and taxes have risen, so has the need for more household income.  The US used to allow for a single wage earner to pay for a family's expenses, save for a home, take care of medical expenses, etc.  Few owned cars, and "essentials" like TVs, cable service, internet access, cell phones, computers, tablets, and such didn't exist.  We are a services-oriented, consumer driven economy now. 

Back then, the economy was dependent on manufacturing mostly.  Trump is returning some of those manufacturing jobs.  November saw the largest number of new manufacturing jobs created in US history.

So, yes, investing is for people with money they can afford to invest.  Maybe instead of giving the rest of the people more and more of the investor's income, let's try and help more people get to a point where they HAVE money to invest?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2017, 12:32:19 PM »
I wonder why politicians do this, rush it through so people don't read the bad stuff?  Obamacare went through the same way.  They had a year to write it and have everyone review it.

Elizabeth Warren who is against the bill admitted she didn't even read it.

groveler

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2017, 12:49:35 PM »
As someone who itemizes a lot of deductions this really sucks. It's also frustrating to see the permanent tax cuts for the ultra wealthy while everyone else's are only temporary. Is there a possible tax revolt in our future? Probably, but throw it on the pile of disasters that normally accompany an empire in decline. This is what it looks like folks.

In the meantime it's a good idea to get a handle on the subject if you are self employed because next year is going to be a big challenge. Time to call your guy and make some moves before the calendar flips.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/gop-tax-bill-year-end-tax-plans/

I use the standard deduction. I'm debt free. I'm early retired.
I'm eligible to get social security , but I don't because it really
screws up my income and medical insurance  situation.
This Tax bill saves me about $300 per year.  My County recently
increased my taxes more than that.
Our wonderful Democrats are so watching over us!
I don't know How I could live without the benevolence of
the Hawaiian Democrat party!

hvybarrels

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2017, 05:39:01 PM »
I'm not sure you know what "investing" means.

Investing creates capital for businesses to operate and expand.

The problem is economic growth has ended, so the only 'investments' left that pay off any kind of dividend are speculative bubbles. Everybody knows we are in the same position now as we were in 1928, but they think they cash out in time before the bottom drops out. Real economic numbers are impossible to come by because the books have been cooked for so long that the people on TV pretending to be economists wouldn't even know where to start collecting accurate information. It's true that we have a lot of taxes, but not compared to the rest of the industrialized world where they actually get stuff in return. Ours fund huge corporate welfare entitlement programs to energy companies, military industrial complex, pharma, ag, and everyone else who can afford to buy a seat at the table. Do these companies increase salaries hire more people with the windfall of cash? No. They buy back their own stocks to cover up the fact that they are losing money.

I suppose it will all become apparent soon enough, though. If the Bitcoin craze is any indication this sugar rush cycle is almost over. Resist the temptation unless you like losing big time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates
“A Communist system can be recognized by the fact that it spares the criminals and criminalizes the political opponent.”   -Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Flapp_Jackson

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2017, 05:46:40 PM »
The problem is economic growth has ended, so the only 'investments' left that pay off any kind of dividend are speculative bubbles. Everybody knows we are in the same position now as we were in 1928, but they think they cash out in time before the bottom drops out. Real economic numbers are impossible to come by because the books have been cooked for so long that the people on TV pretending to be economists wouldn't even know where to start collecting accurate information. It's true that we have a lot of taxes, but not compared to the rest of the industrialized world where they actually get stuff in return. Ours fund huge corporate welfare entitlement programs to energy companies, military industrial complex, pharma, ag, and everyone else who can afford to buy a seat at the table. Do these companies increase salaries hire more people with the windfall of cash? No. They buy back their own stocks to cover up the fact that they are losing money.

I suppose it will all become apparent soon enough, though. If the Bitcoin craze is any indication this sugar rush cycle is almost over. Resist the temptation unless you like losing big time.

http://www.businessinsider.com/history-of-tax-rates

I guess you haven't "evolved" the way Mark Cuban has, huh?

The Evolution Of Mark Cuban: From "No Doubt The Market Tanks" To "[Trump's] A Big Plus For The Overall Economy"

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-01-23/evolution-mark-cuban-no-doubt-market-tanks-trumps-big-plus-overall-economy
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

hvybarrels

Re: GOP Tax Bill
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2017, 04:10:38 PM »
Not so much. But then I don't have a massive fortune that depends on speculation. Notice Mark isn't saying weather Trump's policies are good or bad for the country, just for investment. It seems people have forgotten that there can be quite the inverse relationship between those two as disastrously proven back in 1929 and 1987.

Speaking of which, the ramp up in stock buybacks has already begun even before this thing gets passed.

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/19/tax-bill-corporate-cut-stock-buyback-republican/

Keep in mind the last several market crashes were almost always proceeded by tax giveaways to the ultra rich that were supposed to stimulate the economy but got invested in bubbles instead. This process has been tried and the results are sadly predictable.
“A Communist system can be recognized by the fact that it spares the criminals and criminalizes the political opponent.”   -Alexander Solzhenitsyn