Mililani Shooting (Read 26892 times)

2ahavvaii

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2017, 11:55:51 PM »
Just because you intend to give up your property doesn't necessarily mean you'll escape unharmed.   There's many cases where this doesn't prove2 you be the case.   They'll rob you,  then assault or kill you

punaperson

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2017, 07:08:11 AM »
Just because you intend to give up your property doesn't necessarily mean you'll escape unharmed.   There's many cases where this doesn't prove2 you be the case.   They'll rob you,  then assault or kill you
There are some specific scenarios (e.g. armed robber, unarmed convenience store clerk) where the outcome of resistance compared to non-resistance is "worse" for the victim of the crime, but otherwise, resistance generally leads to a better outcome, and the best outcomes of all are when armed resistance is used by the intended victim (and the best arm to resist with is a firearm). This article goes into detail about the various possible scenarios. Why would the government advise (and enforce in the case of carry outside the home) the exact opposite? (That's a rhetorical question...).

Resistance to Violent Crime: What Does the Research Show?

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/resistance-to-violent-crime-what-does-the-research-show

A study by Gary Kleck found that the probability of serious injury in a criminal attack is two and a half times greater for women offering no resistance than women resisting with a firearm.  Men are also safer if they resist with a firearm than if they do not resist at all, but the difference is smaller (1.5 times less likely to be injured). Kleck and Sayles.  “Rape and Resistance” Social Problems.  Vol. 37.  No. 2. 1990.

Almost all studies show that resistance is successful in preventing the completion of a personal crime.  This holds true in rape, robbery, and assault.  Resistance is an especially effective tactic in preventing most rapes.  A woman who physically resists a rapist doubles her chance of escaping rape. Bachman, Saltzman, Thompson, and Carmody, “Disentangling the Effects of Self-Protective Behaviors on the Risk of Injury in Assaults Against Women”.  Journal of Quantitative Criminology, Vol. 18, No 2, June 2002

And if you want to get more into the "weeds"...

Victim Resistance and Offender Weapon Effects in Robbery
Gary Kleck and Miriam A. DeLone
Journal of Quantitative Criminology, Vol. 9, No. 1, 1993 

Many police officers advise victims and prospective victims not to resist
criminals [some particularly egregious examples are given by Anderson
(1991)]. In light of the evidence summarized here, this advice seems dubious.
While this advice is undoubtedly sincere, it usually appears to be based on
selectively recalled "cop war stories" and similar anecdotal evidence derived
informally from small, unrepresentative samples of victims who reported
their crimes to police.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 07:15:04 AM by punaperson »

macsak

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2017, 07:19:49 AM »
interesting how it says that he was shot on the property, not in the house
yes, I know the house is on the property
just interesting how they worded it

my fear is that they will still charge the homeowner
I hope my fears are wrong...

changemyoil66

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2017, 08:34:48 AM »
my fear is that they will still charge the homeowner
I hope my fears are wrong...

^^^This.  They haven't charged him yet, probably the AG is getting more info.  I'm sure they're going to look at ballistics to see at what distance the robber was shot at.

But then again, it's how the homeowner articulates why he shot.

2ahavvaii

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2017, 09:15:49 AM »
^^^This.  They haven't charged him yet, probably the AG is getting more info.  I'm sure they're going to look at ballistics to see at what distance the robber was shot at.

But then again, it's how the homeowner articulates why he shot.

homeowner better have a good lawyer ready.

In looking at the video, there really isn't a bunch of outside space after a burglar jumps the fence.  Even if they're out in the patio area,they're pretty much threatening the home. At least in my opinion.
   A lot of times, people will have screen or sliding doors that are open to let the breeze in as well. 

eyeeatingfish

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2017, 03:00:05 PM »
How do you treat a robber, burglar, murderer or rapist with respect?

You shoot them in the head to end their pain quickly.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2017, 03:03:44 PM »
A study by Gary Kleck found that the probability of serious injury in a criminal attack is two and a half times greater for women offering no resistance than women resisting with a firearm.  Men are also safer if they resist with a firearm than if they do not resist at all, but the difference is smaller (1.5 times less likely to be injured). Kleck and Sayles.  “Rape and Resistance” Social Problems.  Vol. 37.  No. 2. 1990.

Almost all studies show that resistance is successful in preventing the completion of a personal crime.  This holds true in rape, robbery, and assault.  Resistance is an especially effective tactic in preventing most rapes.  A woman who physically resists a rapist doubles her chance of escaping rape. Bachman, Saltzman, Thompson, and Carmody, “Disentangling the Effects of Self-Protective Behaviors on the Risk of Injury in Assaults Against Women”.  Journal of Quantitative Criminology, Vol. 18, No 2, June 2002


I would have to dig to find the source because I used it in a college newspaper article over a decade ago but if i recall correctly, when a woman uses a weapon to resist rape she is successful like 95% of the time.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2017, 03:10:36 PM »
homeowner better have a good lawyer ready.

In looking at the video, there really isn't a bunch of outside space after a burglar jumps the fence.  Even if they're out in the patio area,they're pretty much threatening the home. At least in my opinion.
   A lot of times, people will have screen or sliding doors that are open to let the breeze in as well.

Yup.

He is going to have to be able to articulate that he reasonably felt he was in danger of either Rape, murder, sodomy, serious bodily injury, or kidnapping. He would then need to articulate that he did not have a reasonably safe way to retreat. Although since it was his own home, people are not required to retreat from their home.

Depending on what the crime scene shows I think it fairly easy to explain why he shot. There is reason to believe that a home intruder may be armed and there is reason to believe that a home intruder may tie up the occupant (kidnapping). I think he might also be able to explain that he didn't think he could make it inside and lock the door in time and that he was afraid he could be hurt if they attacked him before he made it in the door. On top of that scientific studies of shootings have shown that due to human reaction times it is possible to decide to shoot when someone is facing and end up hitting them in the back.

If the prosecutors wanted to charge him they would have a tough time proving he wasn't in danger I think.

bass monkey

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2017, 04:09:15 PM »
my fear is that they will still charge the homeowner
I hope my fears are wrong...

What would you as a juror vote?

macsak

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2017, 04:22:04 PM »
What would you as a juror vote?

depends on the testimony and the evidence
but if he was shot outside the house, the law seems pretty clear...

bass monkey

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2017, 04:26:29 PM »
depends on the testimony and the evidence
but if he was shot outside the house, the law seems pretty clear...

 :thumbsup:

London808

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2017, 04:28:39 PM »
Please for the love of god do not quote the whole thing in a reply.

https://www.capitol.hawaii.gov/hrscurrent/vol14_Ch0701-0853/HRS0703/HRS_0703-0304.htm

§703-304  Use of force in self-protection.  (1)  Subject to the provisions of this section and of section 703-308, the use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by the other person on the present occasion.

     (2)  The use of deadly force is justifiable under this section if the actor believes that deadly force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.

     (3)  Except as otherwise provided in subsections (4) and (5) of this section, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do, or abstaining from any lawful action.

     (4)  The use of force is not justifiable under this section:

     (a)  To resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a law enforcement officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or

     (b)  To resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:

          (i)  The actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest; or

         (ii)  The actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.

     (5)  The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section if:

     (a)  The actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

     (b)  The actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating or by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right thereto or by complying with a demand that he abstain from any action which he has no duty to take, except that:

          (i)  The actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be; and

         (ii)  A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties, or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape, is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform his duty, effect the arrest, or prevent the escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom the action is directed.

     (6)  The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime. [L 1972, c 9, pt of §1; ree L 1975, c 163, §3; am L 2001, c 91, §4]

 

COMMENTARY ON §703-304

 

  This section substantially adopts the Model Penal Code rules on justification of the use of force in self-protection.  It has been rewritten and reorganized to make it more easily understandable.

  Subsection (1) requires a belief by the actor that the use of protective force is actually necessary, and that unlawful force (defined in §703-300) is to be used by the assailant.  He must believe, further, that immediate use of force is required, although the threatened harm to him need not be "imminent," as the rule was sometimes phrased at common law.  It is enough that unlawful force is threatened on the present occasion by his assailant.  The actor may make his defensive move without waiting for his assailant to load his gun or to summon reinforcements.  Finally, the actor must believe that the particular degree of force used by him is necessary.  This formulation is not meant to require a precise equation, but it will limit the defense to situations in which a particular scope and degree of retaliation is believed by the actor to be appropriate to the aggression.

  Subsections (2) and (5) strictly limit the use of deadly force.  Under the circumstances specified in subsection (2), the actor may use deadly force if he believes it is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily harm, kidnapping, rape, or forcible sodomy.  This formulation has two implications:  (a) the actor must believe that deadly force is the only viable means of preventing the specified harm, and (b) the actor must believe that one of the specified harms is threatened on the present occasion.  "Deadly force" is defined in §703-300.  Its use is further restricted by subsection (5).  Deadly force may not be used if the actor provoked his assailant's use of force against himself in the same encounter with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily injury.  Of course, if he intends only moderate harm and receives a deadly response, the initial aggressor may respond with deadly force.  The use of deadly force is also denied when the actor can avoid using it with complete safety by retreating, by surrendering possession of a thing to a person asserting a claim of right to it, or by complying with a demand that he refrain from taking an action which he has no legal duty to take.  In any of these cases, the Code may seem to be opting for cowardice.  However, it should be the strong principle of any criminal code to prevent death wherever possible.  To quote the Model Penal Code commentary,

     It rests, of course, upon the view that protection of life has such a high place in a proper scheme of social values that the law cannot permit conduct which places life in jeopardy, when the necessity for doing so can be avoided by the sacrifice of the much smaller value that inheres in standing up to an aggression.[1]

  However, a duty to retreat or take over evasive action is not imposed in two situations.  Subsection (5), subparagraph (b)(i), states that the actor is not required to retreat from his dwelling or his place of work unless he was the initial aggressor or unless he is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work he knows it to be.  We would not normally expect a man to abandon his home to an aggressor and would allow him to stand his ground, although an exception is made, consistent with paragraph (a), if the actor is the initial aggressor.  The exception for an attack in a man's place of work is new with the Model Penal Code.  The same principles which permit a man to remain in his home would, for example, permit a shopkeeper to defend himself in his place of business without abandoning it to attackers.  Subparagraph (b)(ii), of the same subsection, relates to public officials or persons assisting them using force in the performance of duty.  It would be against public interest to require a public officer to abandon his duty if he meets resistance.  This Code follows the Model Penal Code in extending the justification to all arrests and performances of duty, even if they are technically unlawful.  Throughout chapter 703 the rule is that resistance to unlawful arrest is to be made in court rather than physically.

  The Code also specifically requires surrendering possession of a thing when the attacker asserts a claim of right thereto.  Where a person offers deadly force unless another surrenders property to him, and claims a right to the property, it is certainly sound policy to save life and litigate the disputed ownership in court.  Naturally, however, this rule does not apply in cases of robbery, where the assailant can make no claim of right, and it is the purpose of the Code to permit deadly resistance to robbery if the conditions of subsection (2) are met.  Finally, deadly force is impermissible if the actor can avoid using it by complying with a demand that he refrain from any action which he has no duty to take.  Again, the policy of saving life seems more insistent than the right of the individual to complete freedom of action.

  Subsection (3) states the generally applicable rule that the actor need not retreat or take any other evasive action before estimating the necessity for the use of force in self-protection.

  Subsection (4) sets general limits on the use of self-protective force.  Paragraph (a) follows the Model Penal Code in forbidding any use of force to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer.  Resistance to even an unlawful arrest should be made in court.  No valid social policy is served by permitting physical resistance to peace officers who are known as such by the actor.  If the law were to permit physical resistance, it would in effect be sanctioning unnecessary injury.  However, only force for the purpose of resisting an arrest is proscribed.  If the officer threatens to use unlawful force after the arrest, the normal self-protection rules would apply.  In other words, the actor may resist a "peril greater than arrest."[2]  Paragraph (b) is closely related to §703-306 (protection of property) which permits the use of force by the occupier or possessor of property to protect it.  The actor may not use force to counter that permissible force, when it is directed at him under a claim of right to protect the property, unless he is a public officer or a person assisting him or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest, or unless he believes that he must use force to protect himself against death or serious bodily harm.  A third Model Penal Code exception, dealing with a right of re-entry or recaption, has been omitted.  As explained in the commentary to §703-306, it does not seem wise to deal separately with these matters.  This Code treats them under the more general rules relating to protection of property.

  Subsection (6) recognizes that confinement may be used as protective force.  Because of the continuing nature of confinement, however, the Code requires the actor to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows he can do so safely.  He has no such duty if the person is arrested, simply because the legality of a confinement will then be tested by ordinary judicial processes.

  Previous Hawaii case law required that the defendant's belief be reasonable.[3]  Contrary to subsection (3) of the Code, under the Hawaii cases, the defendant must retreat before he uses any force, except in those circumstances where deadly force is the only way serious felonies against persons can be prevented.[4]  In the latter situations, it appears that Hawaii case law, like the Code, would require retreat if it could be accomplished with complete safety.[5]  To the extent that Hawaii cases demand "imminent" danger, in the common law sense,[6] the Code represents a change in the law.  Finally, the subsection on confinement is an addition to Hawaii law.

 

Case Notes

 

  Defendant entitled to instruction on self-defense whenever testimony fairly raises the issue, no matter how weak.  59 H. 148, 577 P.2d 793 (1978).

  Defendant is entitled to jury instructions on self-defense where there is any evidence in the record to support jury consideration of the issue.  60 H. 504, 591 P.2d 615 (1979).

  In self-defense to charge of homicide, admissibility of evidence of deceased's character for violence and aggression.  61 H. 328, 603 P.2d 151 (1979).

  Where trial court conspicuously omitted from its self-defense instruction any reference to the use of "force", which was essential to defendant's defense at trial, insofar as defendant expressly disputed whether defendant's use of force constituted "deadly force", and instructed jury that, as a matter of law, defendant employed "deadly force" against victim because death in fact resulted from defendant's use of force, trial court's instruction was not harmless beyond a reasonable doubt.  101 H. 377, 69 P.3d 88 (2003).

  Where defendant raised the issue of self-defense, trial court did not err in concluding that prosecution proved that defendant was not acting in self-defense when defendant shot victim.  107 H. 469, 115 P.3d 648 (2005).

  Where trial court's jury instruction sufficiently tracked subsection (3) as it informed the jury that the reasonableness of defendant's belief must be viewed from defendant's perspective, appeals court properly determined that the instruction was consistent with the language of this section.  118 H. 452, 193 P.3d 368 (2008).

  Jury instruction relating to the defense of the use of force for the protection of other persons pursuant to §703-305 was erroneous as it improperly included elements relating to the defense of the use of force in self-protection under this section; however, error was harmless because there was no evidence in the record to support a finding that, under the circumstances as a person would reasonably believe them to be, defendant was justified in using force in defense of others.  123 H. 205, 231 P.3d 478 (2010).

  Jury instruction explaining the subjective portion of an assessment of petitioner's self-defense claim not misleading where jury was instructed to "place [themselves] in the shoes of the [petitioner]" and to assess petitioner's "subjective belief"; reading the instructions as a whole, the omission of specific language from State v. Lubong was not necessary to further explain the subjective portion.  129 H. 206, 297 P.3d 1062 (2013).

  Objective portion of the self-defense jury instruction was not erroneous and misleading where jury instruction substituted the term "reasonable person" with "reasonably prudent person"; "reasonably prudent person" and "reasonable person" are interchangeable terms and a reasonable juror would not believe there was a difference between the two terms.  129 H. 206, 297 P.3d 1062 (2013).

  The circuit court's self-defense jury instruction was not erroneous; among other things, the jury instruction was based on then-current Hawaii Pattern Jury Instructions-Criminal (HAWJIC) 7.01 with regard to self-defense and petitioner's argument that the instruction should have included language in subsection (3) regarding retreating and other acts, failed.  131 H. 463, 319 P.3d 382 (2014).

  Defendant's claim of justification, in defense against prosecution for terroristic threatening, was established regardless of whether or not defendant used deadly force.  1 H. App. 167, 616 P.2d 229 (1980).

  Evidence indicated defendant could have retreated safely; attack with baseball bat using sufficient force to break complainant's arm constituted deadly force.  2 H. App. 369, 633 P.2d 547 (1981).

  Defendant did not reasonably believe that kicking person on floor was immediately necessary to protect self.  2 H. App. 577, 636 P.2d 1365 (1981).

  State failed its burden of introducing substantial evidence disproving defendant's facts or proving facts negativing defendant's self-protection justification defense.  9 H. App. 435, 843 P.2d 1389 (1993).

  There was substantial evidence to support trial court's conclusion that a reasonable person would not have believed that it was necessary to use deadly force on the particular occasion.  77 H. 429 (App.), 886 P.2d 766 (1994).

  Trial court did not err in denying defendant's request that in addition to the choice of evils defense under §703-302, jury be instructed on the justification defenses of use of force in the protection of self and others under this section and §703-305; defendant's theory of defense was fully and adequately covered by the choice of evils instruction which the trial court gave and under the circumstances of the case, there was no reasonable possibility that the jury, which rejected defendant's choice of evils defense, might have embraced defenses based on this section and §703-305.  114 H. 507 (App.), 164 P.3d 765 (2007).

  Prosecution's misstatement of law was not harmless error where (1) prosecution misstated the law concerning self-defense by incorrectly imputing a requirement that defendant must have intended to kill the victim in order for the defense of self-protection to apply, and (2) the trial court did not correct this misstatement by either sustaining defense counsel's objection or curing the misstatement in its jury instructions.  Thus, if the jury believed this misstatement, it would have incorrectly concluded that the defense of self-protection was inapplicable since defendant clearly stated that defendant never intended to kill the victim.  120 H. 420 (App.), 209 P.3d 1234 (2009).

  Where petitioner was not charged with assault for confining victim to the ground, for which a jury instruction regarding confinement may have been warranted, but rather was charged with murder in the second degree for firing a shotgun at victim resulting in victim's death, and respondent State did not rely at trial on a theory that petitioner unlawfully confined victim, trial court not required, when instructing jury regarding self-defense, to instruct the jury regarding relationship between "confinement" and self-defense pursuant to subsection (6).  129 H. 206, 297 P.3d 1062 (2013).

 

__________

§703-304 Commentary:

 

1.  M.P.C., Tentative Draft No. 8, comments at 24 (1958).

 

2.  Id. at 19.

 

3.  State v. Clyde, 47 Haw. 345, 388 P.2d 846 (1964).

 

4.  King v. Bridges, 5 Haw. 467 (1885).

 

5.  Id.

 

6.  State v. Clyde, 47 Haw. 345, 388 P.2d 846, 852 (1964); Territory v. Yadao, 35 Haw. 198, 201 (1959).
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

London808

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2017, 04:36:10 PM »
Its important to look at the notes and the commentary after the law itself, It has been re-summarized to make it easier/clearer to understand.

It occurred outside the persons home, and the home owner had other options (retreat into the home) then deadly force.  By approaching and saying he has a gun the home owner provoked the situation causing the need for deadly force. Both of which nolify the use of deadly force in Hawaii (not saying agree but the law seems pretty clear)
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

2ahavvaii

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2017, 07:19:23 PM »
Its important to look at the notes and the commentary after the law itself, It has been re-summarized to make it easier/clearer to understand.

It occurred outside the persons home, and the home owner had other options (retreat into the home) then deadly force.  By approaching and saying he has a gun the home owner provoked the situation causing the need for deadly force. Both of which nolify the use of deadly force in Hawaii (not saying agree but the law seems pretty clear)

It REALLY depends on the prosecutor & judge in the matter, as well as having good legal council, and not self incriminating yourself.  Even though the homeowner may be guilty by the letter of the law, they may not pursue due to circumstances.  Such as a law abiding citizen being taken advantage of by a methhead with 999 prior arrests.  Such as facing overwhelming general public outrage.  Such as the unlikelyhood of a murder conviction by a jury of 12 peers.  Such as the details of the situation coming down to the word of a law abiding homeowner against a drugged out methhead (or a dead one).
----------------------------------------------
Anyone remember this case?

Hardworking poor immigrant farmer (no prior convictions) confronts unarmed methhead thief (who has stolen from him previously with a rapsheet as long as santa's naughty list), fills him full of buckshot (on his land, not in his home), thief dies.  Over the next couple years, the city quietly lets the case fade away

Quote
  Baccam was accused of fatally shooting Marcelino Pacheco, 38, who was found dead on Malaekahana Road on Sept. 7, 2004, after Baccam walked into the Wahiawa District Police Station to report the incident.

Baccam fired a shotgun in self-defense because he “faced a terrifying encounter and felt the need to protect himself,” his attorney, Todd Eddins, said at a Sept. 14, 2004, court hearing.

Pacheco bled to death from shotgun-pellet wounds in the legs and thigh. City Deputy Medical Examiner Dr. William Goodhue testified at a hearing in 2004 that Pacheco had crystal methamphetamine in his system, which contributed to the bleeding.

Pacheco had 24 prior arrests and three convictions for petty misdemeanors, police reported. Baccam had no criminal record.

Acting Circuit Judge Hilary Gangnes dismissed the second-degree murder charge on Nov. 8, 2006, because the prosecutor’s office took longer than 180 days to bring the case to trial, in violation of Hawaii’s speedy trial law.

But Gangnes ruled that city prosecutors could reinstate the charge. Deputy Prosecutor Russell Uehara said at the time that the office was considering refiling a murder or a manslaughter charge as well as engaging in plea negotiations.

The prosecutor’s office said this week it would not refile the case in light of the decision to not refile made by the office under then-Prosecutor Peter Carlisle, now Honolulu mayor. Keith Kaneshiro succeeded Carlisle as prosecutor.

“We don’t want to second-guess the decision that the office under Carlisle made,” said Dave Koga, spokesman for Kaneshiro’s office.

Eddins said earlier in the week he thought the chance of charges being refiled against Baccam would be “highly improbable.”

http://www.staradvertiser.com/2011/07/14/hawaii-news/whatever-happened-to/charges-not-refiled-against-farmer-who-shot-thief-dead/
http://archives.starbulletin.com/2004/10/13/news/story5.html
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 07:35:58 PM by 2ahavvaii »

Heavies

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2017, 08:34:50 PM »
If I were on that jury I would acquit, unless there was some kind of crazy unmentioned circumstance that the homeowner had some kind of criminal intent going on.   I don't give a rip what Hawaii law says, Hawaii law is dead wrong and against the lawful citizen.

NOT GUILTY

2ahavvaii

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2017, 09:27:26 PM »
If I were on that jury I would acquit, unless there was some kind of crazy unmentioned circumstance that the homeowner had some kind of criminal intent going on.   I don't give a rip what Hawaii law says, Hawaii law is dead wrong and against the lawful citizen.

NOT GUILTY

I think that's exactly the reason why they didn't bring the case to court, even though he's likely guilty under hawaii law.  People were livid that he was potentially going to jail for murder, and chances are most people would side with the farmer instead of voting according to the letter of the law.  Acquittal would set a "dangerous" precedent that flies directly in the face of hawaii law, making the entire system lose credibility and appear foolish.  Instead of sweeping these types of cases under the rug or arresting homeowners and making them jump through legal hoops to avoid jail, they need to FIX the hawaii law.

drck1000

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2017, 10:03:35 PM »
Was reading the comment on HNN and was pleasantly surprised at the responses supporting the homeowner. Many of the comments were misinformed, but good to see people are seemingly seeing the light, getting tired of being vulnerable without means to protect themselves, etc.

Lots of reasons why shooting someone in the back would be justified.  To me, things are simple. If the guy didn’t break into the property, he wouldn’t have gotten shot.

2ahavvaii

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2017, 11:06:18 PM »
I just like how the cops tell people things like "don't resist", let them violate you, your family and take and your property, and hopefully you wont get hurt.  No you're not allowed to carry and defend yourself in public, and can only do so in private under certain circumstances.  YET they follow an entirely different set of rules...

Hows about when cops are about to enter a potentially dangerous situation, they put their guns in the car trunk?  When some crazy homeless person assaults them, they curl up into a fetal position and let the assailant do what they please?  Simply applying the same circumstances and how the public is expected to behave to other, more privileged individuals just shows the hypocrisy of the laws and how much they've trodden on our 2A rights.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 07:05:52 AM by 2ahavvaii »

Jl808

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2017, 09:27:11 AM »
Hmmm... Two unknown male adults wearing a mask in your home... let me think about that one.  What if it was Santa just delivering presents?  </sarc off>

NOT. GUILTY.
I think, therefore I am armed.
NRA Life Patron member, HRA Life member, HiFiCo Life Member, HDF member

The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.

drck1000

Re: Mililani Shooting
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2017, 10:25:34 AM »
Hmmm... Two unknown male adults wearing a mask in your home... let me think about that one.  What if it was Santa just delivering presents?  </sarc off>

NOT. GUILTY.
The saying "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" is oh so fitting in this case.  Like I said above, it's really quite simple, at least in my mind.  Don't go where you don't belong.  If you do, you accept the consequences of that action and what's coming to you.  Yeah, I get that the law isn't that simple, but. . .