1. 2aHawaii
  2. General Topics
  3. General Discussion
  4. Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
Print
Pages: [1] 2

Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter (Read 8364 times)

punaperson

Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« on: November 27, 2018, 08:18:40 PM »
No. Seriously. A cop actually did this. And it's not April first. I really really hope this is some kind of news prank... but... I fear it's real. Real fucking stupid.

Hockey pucks pitched as self-defense against potential active shooters at Michigan university

https://www.foxnews.com/us/hockey-pucks-used-for-self-defense-against-potential-shooters-in-michigan-university

How do you stop a bad guy with a gun when there's no good guy with a gun around? Maybe throw a hockey puck at him.

A university in suburban Detroit is distributing hockey pucks as a form of self-defense against potential active shooters, according to reports.

Because Oakland University has a no-weapons policy, university police Chief Mark Gordon suggested using a hockey puck to distract a shooter.

"The first thing that came to my mind was a hockey puck. I was a hockey coach for my kids growing up. I remember getting hit in the head with a hockey puck once and it hurt," university police Chief Mark Gordon told Detroit's FOX 2.

Gordon said to fight effectively, faculty and students need to be prepared to throw heavy objects that will cause a distraction. Gordan said pucks fit the bill and can conveniently be carried in brief cases or backpacks.

"It was just kind of a spur-of-the-moment idea that seemed to have some merit to it and it kind of caught on," Gordon told the Detroit News.

Upon Gordon's suggestion, Professor Tom Discenna, president of the faculty union, spearheaded an effort to purchase 2,500 hockey pucks for union members and students, the Free Press reported.

"Eight hundred of them have been distributed to our faculty members and there's an additional 1,700 that I'm working with student congress to distribute to our students," Discenna told FOX 2.

"It’s just the idea of having something, a reminder that you’re not powerless and you’re not helpless in the classroom," Discenna told the paper.

Logged

oldfart

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2018, 08:52:20 PM »
If I had to throw a heavy object at a shooter, I'd pick a grenade.
Logged
What, Me Worry?

bass monkey

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2018, 09:11:00 PM »
It’s just the idea of having something, a reminder that you’re not powerless and you’re not helpless in the classroom," Discenna told the paper.

At least this school is actually starting to do something.
And I agree and encourage them to have that self defense mindset
Hopefully it will eventually expand to include other self defense options like firearms
Logged

new guy

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2018, 09:11:52 PM »
Fucking ridiculous.
Logged
Your mindset is your primary weapon. - Jeff Cooper

macsak

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2018, 09:27:28 PM »
Logged

Falken Hawke

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2018, 09:32:15 PM »
So a few things come to mind reading this.  First is who's going to take responsibility if someone gets hurt or killed while attempting to or throwing a hockey puck?  Yes, they hurt when striking the head and body but you're talking about throwing a hockey puck at someone who is shooting at the throwers.  Maybe there's a difference in force there?

Second, I am reminded of when I was in high school, a friend of mine couldn't throw a ball.  Literally.  I kid you not.  No physical limitations, just couldn't throw a ball.  There was also a classmate in P.E. who not only was the same, but so uncoordinated, struck out playing kickball.  Every time.

I'm sure these are rare examples but how many people are there who can't EFFECTIVELY throw?  Not to mention accurately at a distance greater than twenty feet?  That friend of mine had no problem shooting though.

Then there's mention of throwing heavy objects.  Apparently whoever mentioned that hasn't tried throwing anything greater than a pound accurately and effectively for "self defense".  As far as I know, the only heavy object that can be thrown effectively at distance also explodes after five seconds and even then, it's still not a quick process.

What is especially bothersome is the lack of consideration for Physics.  Unlike the laws of "Man", the laws of Physics cannot be broken.  As I've pointed out, the " Hockey Puck Strategy" relies on close distance to have any real effect on a hostile threat.  If that threat is a shooter, those bullets being shot are traveling faster closer to their origin point.  Energy=Mass x Velocity².  The more energy a victim is exposed to, the more likely an injury will be fatal and Velocity has more of an effect on the energy applied than the mass.

Conversely, the hockey puck will need to travel at a higher velocity to be effective and that is pushing the limits of average people.  Below average people will just be S.O.L. in the "Hockey Puck Strategy", save throwing the puck from the 3rd floor or higher I guess.

Finally, absolutely zero consideration for the hopped up druggie.  If they can lift and throw around multiple not so small people, what's a hockey puck going to do?
Logged

new guy

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2018, 09:59:45 PM »
In my opinion, this is an irresponsible response that creates a false sense of security.

Arming people with hockey pucks... are you fucking kidding me??

Only when people realize that you are on your own to protect yourself and your loved ones from bad prople out there who may wish to do you severe bodily harm, for no reason at all, and that law enforcement is not able to protect you, will you (perhaps) begin to grasp the importance of JUST ONE ASPECT of the 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms.
Logged
Your mindset is your primary weapon. - Jeff Cooper

6716J

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2018, 07:35:47 AM »
Good thing I have a couple cases of pucks available. Along with sticks... So should I suit up every day then?
Logged
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

stangzilla

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2018, 07:59:19 AM »
and when you hit the shooter with the hockey puck, now you're the next target


at my work we had active shooter training which was laughable.  and they said something similar, "throw the stapler at them"
just about everyone that I was sitting around looked at each other with a look on our faces knowing that would be very stupid thing to do
when we asked about putting locks on our doors, they replied "not in the budget"
I can get a lock from Walmart for $10 and install it myself, but they don't want you to do that bc its not company policy
many simple things I can see that can help but I don't make the calls where I work, so if we do get an active shooter I've come to the conclusion that if they get into our office space we're dead
Logged

punaperson

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2018, 09:08:22 AM »
Rumor has it that the cop's FIRST suggestion was "get a big dog", but that was deemed impractical by the university administration and faculty union who claimed that would lead to too much barking and dog shit in the classrooms.

But seriously folks... the cop did qualify that throwing a puck would be "a distraction", not an actual defense. And he's right. As others pointed out, it'd be a distraction from who the shooter was targeting and onto the thrower. Definitely "effective" in that sense.

Yeah, the "active shooter" training used to be "Run. Hide. Fight." Now it's "Run. Hide. Throw the Puck." To paraphrase: You can lead a liberal to the totally obvious, but you can't make it have a rational thought.

[This would tie into the video by Mark Dice posted in the Political section, wherein those whose brains show the least "disgust" reaction to disgusting things are reliably more "liberal" than "conservative". One can imagine showing a brief segment of the "training" where the leaders tell the students "If an active shooter comes into the room, the most effective defense we will allow is throwing a puck. No firearms allowed in this gun-free zone." The liberal brain reacts "Yes. Okay. Makes perfect sense. I concur. Where's my puck?" The conservative brain responds "Are you fucking shitting me? You must be fucking retarded. I'm packing."]
Logged

changemyoil66

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2018, 09:17:01 AM »
1) That's how you become more of a target from an active shooter
2) It's better than stones (PA high school).  Because this cost money to make so you're supporting the business who makes them
Logged

drck1000

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2018, 09:21:35 AM »
Here's some thing from Rob Pincus that I saw this morning.  I know a bunch of you are fans of PDN, so. . .

Quote
“Gun People” are often far too quick to dismiss these types of initiatives.
It is important to acknowledge how something like this creates a fighting mindset and empowers people... that’s a step in the right direction.
Once people understand that THEY are responsible for their own safety, they are one step closer to understanding the potential value of a defensive firearm and training to use it. It is also important for anyone promoting Personal Defense to accept that some people will never have a firearm as an option, including school kids! 
If you have an emotional reaction to the headline and want to guffaw, take a breath or two first and think about the principle underlying your interest in carrying or advocating for Dede dice firearms. You should be able to see that teaching people that they are responsible for their own defense is aligned with your position.


I saw it on Rob Pincus' FB page if you want to see the original posting/source.

I don't follow him or PDN that closely, but I agree with him here.  Yeah, on face value, the original Detroit statement was stupid and ignorant.  But there is an opportunity for a "teachable moment". 
Logged

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2018, 10:41:49 AM »
Logged
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2018, 11:37:46 AM »
Quote from: drck1000 on November 28, 2018, 09:21:35 AM
Here's some thing from Rob Pincus that I saw this morning.  I know a bunch of you are fans of PDN, so. . .

I saw it on Rob Pincus' FB page if you want to see the original posting/source.

I don't follow him or PDN that closely, but I agree with him here.  Yeah, on face value, the original Detroit statement was stupid and ignorant.  But there is an opportunity for a "teachable moment".
Does Pincus have any data supporting his claim? Or is that just his belief?

Northwestern University saw the puck, and raised it a hole punch. Dana Loesch's facial expression at the end of the university training segment is classic. She then interviews Chuck Holton who seems to be espousing a view very different from Pincus, as he argues that such training does the opposite of Pincus's claim of "creat[ing] a fighting mindset".

https://www.nratv.com/videos/relentless-chuck-holton-northwestern-university-teaches-students-to-fight-shooters-with-hole-punchers?utm_source=nratv&utm_campaign=daily_20181128&utm_medium=email&utm_content=body

Logged

drck1000

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2018, 11:59:51 AM »
Quote from: punaperson on November 28, 2018, 11:37:46 AM
Does Pincus have any data supporting his claim? Or is that just his belief?

SNIP
Data?   ???

I took it as an opinion, not any statements of fact or trying to prove anything.  At least that's the way that I took the post. 
Logged

surfmaster

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2018, 12:42:13 PM »
I would rather throw these at the active shooter. Any chance they can pass these out instead of hockey pucks?
Logged

mrgaf

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2018, 12:44:32 PM »
Here’s and idea...
Get a real big dog and train it to throw hockey pucks! Should make the HPD bozos happy....
Logged
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

punaperson

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2018, 01:51:00 PM »
Quote from: drck1000 on November 28, 2018, 11:59:51 AM
Data?   ???

I took it as an opinion, not any statements of fact or trying to prove anything.  At least that's the way that I took the post.
Pincus: "It is important to acknowledge how something like this creates a fighting mindset and empowers people..."

That's not an opinion. Or at least it's not stated like an opinion, it's stated as a fact. Stated as opinion would be something more like "I believe it is possible that something like this may create a fighting mindset and empower some people". He must have at least some personal anecdotal stories, right? And since he's criticizing people, such as Dana Loesch Chuck Holton who view it oppositely, it'd be nice if Pincus could point to something other than his mere claim, that indicated that his hypothesis has some real world validity. Remember, the first two "rules/strategies" are 1. Run, and 2. Hide. Number 3: Fight, is only considered when all other options have failed. As Holton points out, those first two are the opposite of "a fighting mindset". In fact, he calls it "a victim mindset". Holton didn't cite any particular real world data, except for all the mass casualty events where killers bearing firearms casually go about killing people hiding under desks in gun-free zones with no real concern about their ability to carry out their murders without any significant resistance.

I'm also skeptical that office workers/students/faculty with minimal training to resist/fight only after it's clear that running and hiding won't save them, would have the, um, 'will" to confront a gunman with a folder or hole punch or puck. Maybe they would.
Logged

drck1000

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2018, 02:10:42 PM »
Quote from: punaperson on November 28, 2018, 01:51:00 PM
1) Pincus: "It is important to acknowledge how something like this creates a fighting mindset and empowers people..."

That's not an opinion. Or at least it's not stated like an opinion, it's stated as a fact. Stated as opinion would be something more like "I believe it is possible that something like this may create a fighting mindset and empower some people". He must have at least some personal anecdotal stories, right? And since he's criticizing people, such as Dana Loesch Chuck Holton who view it oppositely, it'd be nice if Pincus could point to something other than his mere claim, that indicated that his hypothesis has some real world validity. Remember, the first two "rules/strategies" are 1. Run, and 2. Hide. Number 3: Fight, is only considered when all other options have failed. As Holton points out, those first two are the opposite of "a fighting mindset". In fact, he calls it "a victim mindset". Holton didn't cite any particular real world data, except for all the mass casualty events where killers bearing firearms casually go about killing people hiding under desks in gun-free zones with no real concern about their ability to carry out their murders without any significant resistance.

2) I'm also skeptical that office workers/students/faculty with minimal training to resist/fight only after it's clear that running and hiding won't save them, would have the, um, 'will" to confront a gunman with a folder or hole punch or puck. Maybe they would.

1) Ahh.  Gotcha.  I took that part as opinion, but I was also keying on where he said:

Quote
Once people understand that THEY are responsible for their own safety, they are one step closer to understanding the potential value of a defensive firearm and training to use it.

Like I said, I don't really follow him, so don't really know that much about him either way. Just came across that in a share on SM.  Also knew that many here are fans of his and PDN.  That's about it.  Anything else, one would have to ask him. 

2) I would tend to agree.  We had numerous mandatory "run, hide, fight" training sessions and it was apparent many either have the "Hawaii's safe, it won't happen to me" mentality or where they seem to have no sense of value of defending themselves.  That line of thinking may be second nature to many here, but I would say that that maybe 15% of the folks I work with think that way. 
Logged

Jl808

Re: Cop gives hockey pucks as self-defense against potential active shooter
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2018, 11:13:44 PM »
Quote from: surfmaster on November 28, 2018, 12:42:13 PM
I would rather throw these at the active shooter. Any chance they can pass these out instead of hockey pucks?

I was thinking of the exact same things. 
Logged
I think, therefore I am armed.
NRA Life Patron member, HRA Life member, HiFiCo Life Member, HDF member

The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.
Print
Pages: [1] 2
« previous next »