80% registration? (Read 15814 times)

London808

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2018, 12:19:09 PM »
And you already own the receiver blank BEFORE any milling.  Explain how you can gain ownership of something you already own.  It's impossible to do.

When you had the 80% did you own a firearm ? No
When you milled the 80% do you own a firearm ? Yes

You gaine ownership off a firearm by manufacturing (other means)


How hard is that to understand.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2018, 12:27:34 PM »
When you had the 80% did you own a firearm ? No
When you milled the 80% do you own a firearm ? Yes

You gaine ownership off a firearm by manufacturing (other means)


How hard is that to understand.

You gain OWNERSHIP by purchasing the blank.

You MANUFACTURED the blank into a firearm (by definition).

There was no transfer of a firearm, nor any "gain of ownership" of a firearm.

How hard is that to understand?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2018, 01:10:02 PM »
Also, the ATF agrees with me. They limit the manufacturing of firearms from receiver blanks to personal use.  Therefore the firearm cannot be transferred.  In other words, ownership was established prior to milling and can never be transferred.

If milling a blank receiver constitutes "gaining ownership," and you purchased the blank from an FFL, then the ATF would require you undergo an NICS background check.


Quote
Licensed firearms importers, manufacturers, and dealers must conduct a NICS background check prior to the transfer of any firearm to a nonlicensed individual.

[18 U.S.C. 922(t); 27 CFR 478.102]

So, you milled it, but the FFL isn't required to do a background check.  Must be because there was no transfer of ownership of a firearm.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

London808

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2018, 01:24:34 PM »
Why do you keep reverting to federal law. Were talking about Hawaii state law.

Hawaii law does not use the word transfer it used the word acquire

The only way your correct is if you ignore the wording of the the law, the intent of the law and the implementation of the law.
.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

tillamook

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2018, 01:25:32 PM »
And you already own the receiver blank BEFORE any milling.  Explain how you can gain ownership of something you already own.  It's impossible to do.

the same way the ATF can say that a 80% receiver is not a firearm until you scratch a few atom's of metal off the surface and then it is.  Or how a small pink dot place don the location of the third pin with some crayon instantly makes the receiver a machine gun.  Or how a bumpstock was not a machine gun and now it is.  Or how a pistol is a pistol and not an SBR until you put the brace on your shoulder

Just BS used to control people and lawyers justifying their jobs. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2018, 01:48:13 PM »
the same way the ATF can say that a 80% receiver is not a firearm until you scratch a few atom's of metal off the surface and then it is.  Or how a small pink dot place don the location of the third pin with some crayon instantly makes the receiver a machine gun.  Or how a bumpstock was not a machine gun and now it is.  Or how a pistol is a pistol and not an SBR until you put the brace on your shoulder

Just BS used to control people and lawyers justifying their jobs.

But, the ATF already recognizes you own the receiver before milling. Their 80% threshold for "not a firearm" is obviously arbitrary, but that's unrelated to this.

As long as you are not otherwise prohibited under the GCA from owning that milled firearm, there are no restrictions or BG checks required -- per the ATF/FBI.  The biggest limitation is you can't legally transfer it to another party, which implies to me any "ghost guns" you own are supposed to be destroyed upon your death.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

tillamook

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2018, 05:17:30 PM »
But, the ATF already recognizes you own the receiver before milling. Their 80% threshold for "not a firearm" is obviously arbitrary, but that's unrelated to this.

As long as you are not otherwise prohibited under the GCA from owning that milled firearm, there are no restrictions or BG checks required -- per the ATF/FBI.  The biggest limitation is you can't legally transfer it to another party, which implies to me any "ghost guns" you own are supposed to be destroyed upon your death.

is that for Hawaii?  ATF has guidelines on putting on serial numbers and then selling them is OK as long as they dont consider you a manufacturer (which probably depends on the mood of the agent) 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2018, 07:01:52 PM »
is that for Hawaii?  ATF has guidelines on putting on serial numbers and then selling them is OK as long as they dont consider you a manufacturer (which probably depends on the mood of the agent)

What the ATF appears to be okay with, Hawaii implemented the exact opposite in our law, mainly to facilitate our 100% registration requirements.  Can't register a gun without a serial number.

You're correct.  There is no serial number requirement by ATF for firearms produced for personal use.

However, there is no reference to any ATF rule requiring a serial number to transfer it.

The firearm had to be manufactured with the INTENT of keeping it for personal use.  If later you decide to gift or sell it, it's legal to do so.  The hard part is proving your original intent was not to transfer it.

So, my original recollection was half wrong -- if you die, the ghost gun can be transferred. No requirement to destroy it.

Here's an excellent distillation of the ATF rules and specific sources regarding manufacturing your own firearms and markings:

http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2017/02/21/am-i-required-to-apply-a-serial-number-to-a-homemade-firearm/

CA passed a Ghost Gun bill that takes effect Jan 1, 2019, which requires a serial number on all firearms whether or not you made it, and transfers of ghost guns (from receiver blanks) are forbidden.

Provisions of the bill are retroactive to firearms owned prior to July 1, 2018.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201520160AB857
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Falken Hawke

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2018, 09:30:55 PM »
Having gone through the whole process, I can tell you that manufacturing a firearm for personal use, no matter what the firearm is made from, is considered acquiring a firearm.

A 12" Chromium-Molybdium steel rod is just as much of a firearm as is a 4"×9"x2" block of aluminum.  They fall into the same category as the 80%, not a firearm.  I call them raw materials.

When the firearm is manufactured, it is by definition, a firearm, not "something-or-other" or "legal jargon excepting it from what it really is" but a firearm.  Make no mistake, a felon in posession of a firearm manufactured by a non-manufacturer is indeed a felon in posession of a firearm.

Loking at the argument that manufacturing a firearm does not constitute acquisition of a firearm because raw materials were originally acquired, how then did the non-manufacturer procure the firearm? 

No matter what the firearm was manufactured from, the end result is it becomes a firearm.  The non-manufacturer did not have a firearm originally, but raw material.  Somewhere in this process, the non-manufacturer must procure a firearm.

While one may argue that posession through manufacturing is not considerd acquiring because there was no transfer, to manufacture a firearm requires real intent.  It would be near impossible to argue manufacture by accident or impulse, especially with an 80%.

With the intent that the final product of the raw material is a firearm, the non-manufacturer will be procuring in the State a firearm in a manner other than by purchase, gift, inheritance, or bequest.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2018, 09:49:35 PM »
Having gone through the whole process, I can tell you that manufacturing a firearm for personal use, no matter what the firearm is made from, is considered acquiring a firearm.

A 12" Chromium-Molybdium steel rod is just as much of a firearm as is a 4"×9"x2" block of aluminum.  They fall into the same category as the 80%, not a firearm.  I call them raw materials.

When the firearm is manufactured, it is by definition, a firearm, not "something-or-other" or "legal jargon excepting it from what it really is" but a firearm.  Make no mistake, a felon in posession of a firearm manufactured by a non-manufacturer is indeed a felon in posession of a firearm.

Loking at the argument that manufacturing a firearm does not constitute acquisition of a firearm because raw materials were originally acquired, how then did the non-manufacturer procure the firearm? 

No matter what the firearm was manufactured from, the end result is it becomes a firearm.  The non-manufacturer did not have a firearm originally, but raw material.  Somewhere in this process, the non-manufacturer must procure a firearm.

While one may argue that posession through manufacturing is not considerd acquiring because there was no transfer, to manufacture a firearm requires real intent.  It would be near impossible to argue manufacture by accident or impulse, especially with an 80%.

With the intent that the final product of the raw material is a firearm, the non-manufacturer will be procuring in the State a firearm in a manner other than by purchase, gift, inheritance, or bequest.

You're not understanding what I said.

The word "acquire" has the meaning of "to gain ownership of [something]"  You are not acquiring ownership of a firearm.  If you were, then ATF rules would apply.

You are manufacturing a firearm from things you already own [ <== key word].  How can you acquire ownership of a firearm unless it was owned by someone else prior to milling it?  It's basic logic.  "To acquire" requires a transaction.  You even listed a bunch of examples: "purchase, gift, inheritance, or bequest."  Those are transactions that involve transferring ownership.

You don't "acquire ownership" in and of itself.  Ownership is not a thing.  You acquire ownership of a firearm.  Therefore, the entire thing rests on whether it was a firearm when you first acquired ownership of the blank.


Requiring a permit to acquire is just a workaround by HPD to force a background check for anyone completing an 80% lower.  Period.  It's not required by the letter of the law.

To answer the question of "how did the non-manufacturer procure the firearm," the answer is in the ATF rules:  an unlicensed person can manufacture a firearm with no restrictions as long as the person is not prohibited from possessing a firearm under the GCA.  He procured the blank, and milled it into a firearm.  The material was owned already.  There was no procurement of the firearm -- it was made, milled, assembled, created, produced, but not acquired.

It's Hawaii police that want to apply "acquisition/procurement" rules to a manufactured firearm for personal use, not the ATF.

Intent is irrelevant.  Federal law specifies you can manufacture a firearm with no restrictions, without serial numbers, background checks, etc.  Period.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Falken Hawke

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2018, 10:09:02 PM »
Arguing semantics in court doesn't sound like a winning proposition, especially when the words being argued are in a dictionary.  That and any Court in the State of Hawaii when you're the defendant in a firearms case.

At this point, I have to suggest that anyone reading this thead err on the side of caution.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2018, 10:27:32 PM »
Arguing semantics in court doesn't sound like a winning proposition, especially when the words being argued are in a dictionary.  That and any Court in the State of Hawaii when you're the defendant in a firearms case.

At this point, I have to suggest that anyone reading this thead err on the side of caution.

Arguing semantics?  Nope.  I'm arguing about the wording used by lawmakers who went to college to become lawyers versus the police who do anything they can to reinterpret laws and discourage firearm purchases and ownership.

Courts are in the business of applying the law AS WRITTEN, not as interpreted by the police. If not, then we can just let the police pass sentence on all their perps.  No need for judges.

I said several times HPD requires a long gun permit to register a firearm that was milled from a blank just as they did for registering a C&R pistol.  So, that's the bottom line.  I'm also stating my opinion that the permit process has been misapplied in those cases to satisfy HPD's background check schemes.

The law needs to be updated to include the process for making personal firearms, but then that would advertise such a thing exists.  We can't have that!!  Ghost guns run amok!!  :shake: :shake: :shake:



The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

tillamook

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2018, 08:13:50 AM »
going to hijack this lawyerly discussion and mention Matrix's 0% ruger 22/45 kit is out.  The 0% receiver and the jig is available but the parts kit is not done yet:

https://www.matrixprecisionparts.com/zero-percent-jigs/

You can finish this receiver with a drill, hacksaw, and some metal files. 

Matrix also makes excellent 1911 80% tools and sig p228/229/220 80% tools and receivers. 

And of course, Every Gun Part has ~3000 parts kits minus receivers
https://everygunpart.com/

London808

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2018, 10:30:07 AM »
Arguing semantics in court doesn't sound like a winning proposition, especially when the words being argued are in a dictionary.  That and any Court in the State of Hawaii when you're the defendant in a firearms case.

At this point, I have to suggest that anyone reading this thead err on the side of caution.


Hes not arguing semantics at all, Hes just making stuff up that if followed will send someone to jail.

Basically hes trolling.
"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2018, 10:48:03 AM »

Hes not arguing semantics at all, Hes just making stuff up that if followed will send someone to jail.

Basically hes trolling.

You really have no clue.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

London808

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2018, 11:01:45 AM »
You really have no clue.

Next you will be arguing you dont need to register them either because you didn't bring them in from out of state and you didn't need to get a permit.

 §134-3  Registration, mandatory, exceptions.  (a)  Every person arriving in the State who brings or by any other manner causes to be brought into the State a firearm of any description,.......
(b)  Every person who acquires a firearm pursuant to section 134-2 shall register the firearm in the manner prescribed by this section within five days of acquisition........

"Mr. Roberts is a bit of a fanatic, he has previously sued HPD about gun registration issues." : Major Richard Robinson 2016

Flapp_Jackson

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2018, 11:06:02 AM »
Next you will be arguing you dont need to register them either because you didn't bring them in from out of state and you didn't need to get a permit.

 §134-3  Registration, mandatory, exceptions.  (a)  Every person arriving in the State who brings or by any other manner causes to be brought into the State a firearm of any description,.......
(b)  Every person who acquires a firearm pursuant to section 134-2 shall register the firearm in the manner prescribed by this section within five days of acquisition........

Stop trolling me.  It's not going to work.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Falken Hawke

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2018, 03:49:46 PM »
going to hijack this lawyerly discussion and mention Matrix's 0% ruger 22/45 kit is out.  The 0% receiver and the jig is available but the parts kit is not done yet:

https://www.matrixprecisionparts.com/zero-percent-jigs/

You can finish this receiver with a drill, hacksaw, and some metal files. 

Matrix also makes excellent 1911 80% tools and sig p228/229/220 80% tools and receivers. 

And of course, Every Gun Part has ~3000 parts kits minus receivers
https://everygunpart.com/
Going to re-energize your hijacking... :D

Is there a good source for Mk. II, III, 22/45 barrels?  I'd have made one a long time ago when the "jigs" were just paper templates but I couldn't find any decent (not used) barrels.  I have a 24" barrel blank to make a barrel (eventually, other projects and all...) but that's time I'd rather spend on other things.

226 on the other hand, might have to do that too...

tillamook

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2018, 04:01:34 PM »
Going to re-energize your hijacking... :D

Is there a good source for Mk. II, III, 22/45 barrels?  I'd have made one a long time ago when the "jigs" were just paper templates but I couldn't find any decent (not used) barrels.  I have a 24" barrel blank to make a barrel (eventually, other projects and all...) but that's time I'd rather spend on other things.

226 on the other hand, might have to do that too...

I have not, found a good source. 

David at Matrix is making a complete parts kit which will include the barrel and given the quality of everything else he sells I suspect it will be on par or better than Ruger.  I've used his 1911 tools to make a 460 Roland 1911 and a couple of Sig p228's  His sig 80% was the only one I built that I would be completely comfortable carrying.  It shot perfect and was 100% reliable when I had it. 

upcoming parts kit:

tillamook

Re: 80% registration?
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2019, 03:35:29 PM »
Funny story.  Not sure if true since its a "person heard it from a person kind of story."  But someone apparently tried to register a couple of completed 80% pistol receivers on the Big Island and the police told them "they dont have serial numbers so you dont have to register them"  If true, I wonder how many are out there floating around because the police dont think they need to be registered?  true ghosts on the Island of huaka'i pō?   

Given how they do not know the law on who needs a mental health clearance assessment, I would not be surprised if this was true.