DISCLAIMER: Please DO NOOOOOOOOOT replicate what I am about to share with you as your outcome could be extremely far different than mine, and for the fact I almost... who am I kidding? I COMPLETELY disregarded Hodgdon's load data calculator. Some of velocities I am about to share with you ARE producing pressures WAY outside of SAAMI +p specs. I am just here to share the data that I got at the range.

     I chose CFE-Pistol because it is one of the more plentiful slower burning action pistol powders on Oahu. I can find it in just about any store that sells gun powder and have seen a consistent price of just under $30 per pound. I've bought this powder for as low as $24 after taxes during sales.

     As a new reloader just shy of making one year since I've started getting into the hobby, one of the biggest things that seemed to be lacking throughout the internet was visual aid of load development. Everyone talks about "look out for signs of overpressure" but I've seldom seen detailed progressive pictures from Load A thru whatever. I'm not saying what I experimented with was the smartest thing a reloader could have done. I am just here to contribute all my findings as best as I can for the next new reloader that had the same questions that I had. Starting load of 5.1gr thru 6.7gr of CFE-Pistol. I honestly didn't think I would make it that far without seeing blatantly alarming signs, but I did without seeing much of being a concern.

2nd DISCLAIMER: That being said I am only one sample size and have created my own process of testing, measuring, inspecting, and torturing the cases until failure (case mouth splits only so far with my highest test charge) to collect data. Everything you see here may have worked for me but could go terribly wrong for you. I HAVE ACCESS TO PRIVATE LAND away from bystanders to test these loads should an unfortunate incident occur. Should you use my data for anything other than information and entertainment, STAY AWAY FROM OTHER PEOPLE, do your own ladder testing, measuring, inspecting, getting to know your own equipments variations (in my case I'm specifically talking about the sizing die, powder throw, and bullet seating die). Put in your own hours, trust your gut, protect your face, and DON'T KILL ANYONE AROUND YOU (I had my friends stand stand about 10ft away directly behind me using my body as a meat shield when moving beyond published load data).

PRESS: Dillon 550C (LEE Undersized Die, DILLON Powder Measure System, RCBS Bullet Seating Die, LEE Factory Crimp Die).

BRASS: Mixed of my personal once fired brass (Blazer being the majority, Federal, PPU, PMC, GFL, Speer, Winchester). I have a batch of 100 that I've loaded up to 6 times with 5.9gr before getting my first case mouth split on one piece of brass.

POWDER: CFE-Pistol (Lot#: 1030917-2029)

BULLET: Everglades 124gr FMJ Recessed Base

PRIMER: Winchester SPP

COAL: 1.140"

CRIMP: .375"

TEST GUNS: Glock 19 Gen 5 4" barrel, SIG P365 3" barrel

CHRONOGRAPH: Competition Electronics set about 5ft away.

5.1gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1080fps 2) 1089fps 3) 1077fps 4) 1092fps 5) 1082fps
Av: 1084
ES: 15
SD: 6.2849

5.1gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1010fps 2) 1011fps 3) 1001fps 4) 1009fps 5) 1011fps
Av: 1008.4
ES: 10
SD: 4.2190

5.3gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1122fps 2) 1107fps 3) 1101fps 4) 1110fps 5) 1101fps
Av: 1108.2
ES: 21
SD: 8.6429

5.3gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1035fps 2) 1014fps 3) 1028fps 4) 1041fps 5) 1040fps
Av: 1031.6
ES: 13
SD: 11.1040

5.5gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1151fps 2) 1132fps 3) 1155fps 4) 1157fps 5) 1158fps
Av: 1150.6
ES: 26
SD: 10.7377

5.5gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1071fps 2) 1074fps 3) 1058fps 4) 1070fps 5) 1062fps
Av: 1067
ES: 16
SD: 6.7082

5.7gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1197fps 2) 1186fps 3) 1179fps 4) 1186fps 5) 1180fps
Av: 1185.6
ES: 18
SD: 7.1624

5.7gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1109fps 2) 1116fps 3) 1115fps 4) 1098fps 5) 1111fps
Av: 1109.8
ES: 18
SD: 7.1902

5.9gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1213fps 2) 1223fps 3) 1215fps 4) 1207fps 5) 1226fps
Av: 1216.8
ES: 19
SD: 7.6941

5.9gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1141fps 2) 1134fps 3) 1155fps 4) 1160fps 5) 1143fps
Av: 1146.6
ES: 26
SD: 10.6442

6.1gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1240fps 2) 1253fps 3) 1243fps 4) 1232fps 5) 1242fps
Av: 1242
ES: 21
SD: 7.5166

6.1gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1169fps 2) 1169fps 3) 1177fps 4) 1161fps 5) 1185fps
Av: 1172.2
ES: 24
SD: 9.1214

6.3gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1287fps 2) 1274fps 3) 1262fps 4) 1265fps 5) 1272fps
Av: 1272
ES: 25
SD: 9.7211

6.3gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1188fps 2) 1192fps 3) 1201fps 4) 1223fps 5) 1209fps
Av: 1202.6
ES: 35
SD: 14.0107

6.5gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1288fps 2) 1297fps 3) 1309fps 4) 1305fps 5) 1299fps
Av: 1299.6
ES: 21
SD: 8.0498

6.5gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1217fps 2) 1212fps 3) 1219fps 4) 1217fps 5) 1226fps
Av: 1218.2
ES: 14
SD: 5.0695

6.7gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
Glock 19 Gen 5
1) 1328fps 2) 1328fps 3) 1318fps 4) 1321fps 5) 1316fps
Av: 1322.2
ES: 12
SD: 5.5856

6.7gr CFE-Pistol / 1.140" COAL
SIG P365
1) 1233fps 2) 1248fps 3) 1257fps 4) 1240fps 5) 1262fps
Av: 1248
ES: 29
SD: 11.8953

Referenced pressure reading method by this gentleman published by Western Powders who referenced this measurement reading from Lyman.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/11/important-steps-to-9-x-19mm-p-defense-load-success/

Case head measurements taken at .200" above the rim, caliper blades placed at 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock where the feed ramp would be; the least supported portion of the case (Glocks make it easy to distinguish the relation of the case when struck because of its asymmetrical firing pin). Pictures are the largest readings for that particular powder charge using Blazer Brass cases which were the majority of cases loaded.

How true this holds? Don't know. But here are my reading for those interested.

Now that you clocked the NATO ammo, you can see that the 4.4 TG and 5.1 CFE effectively simulates the NATO round at pretty safe charge weights. If you seek hot kicking ammo, you are barking up the wrong tree.

More kicks??
Change to your Dads 45acp and run any plated, jacketed, or coated bullet with a generous amount of almost any common powder.
BUT...Stay within the published charge weights. I can recommend...

i mean no offense, but this is probably one of the dumbest reloading threads on this forum.

oldfart is probably just being too nice to tell you how dumb of an idea this was.

if you're going to do something stupid like this, then i suggest you use a different firearm.  even though glock chambers provide a lot of support to the case, there is still some part of the case head that is unsupported.  the weak link in your testing is not the strength of the barrel, chamber, or breach face; the weak link is the brass itself.  if you plan to do additional testing, i suggest you locate a firearm with a fully supported chamber, or find brass with really thick case walls (especially near the head).

You're playing with a ticking bomb.  The specs are there for your safety.  Going under would probably be ok (squibs), but going over can cause a major injury.

And since you're new to reloading, I would stop going over.  The comp shooters have more details on how to "overload" the brass and have $10,000 guns that are designed to handle the pressure.

I appreciate all the tough love, constructive criticism and concern. I take full responsibility of what could of happened.

That being said. I will get the measurements of the cases with calipers just above the webbing from the bottom of the case to case walls and compare them from my lowest charge to the highest. I will use the Blazer cases since  that is the majority of my cases tested. These cases are retired and are going on my shelf as reference. My goal wasn't to please anyone, it was to put as much hard facts out as possible.

Yes Dave, NATO 9mm doesn't reach advertise velocity out of a 4" Barrel. Probably out of a 5".

I appreciate all the tough love, constructive criticism and concern. I take full responsibility of what could of happened.

I don't know where you are firing these rounds, so excuse me if you're already taking these steps to mitigate what could happen to the half dozen other shooters and RSOs near you on the public range.

I recommend you pay for a private lane at an indoor range to prevent injury to others if/when your experiments literally blow up in your face.  That assumes you can find one that allows what you're doing, in light of liability litigation being what it is today.

I don't know where you are firing these rounds, so excuse me if you're already taking these steps to mitigate what could happen to the half dozen other shooters and RSOs near you on the public range.

I recommend you pay for a private lane at an indoor range to prevent injury to others if/when your experiments literally blow up in your face.  That assumes you can find one that allows what you're doing, in light of liability litigation being what it is today.

Shot on coworkers private land in Waimanalo. The Titegroup testing, yes I did take that to KHSC. Shouldnt have.

That being said. I will get the measurements of the cases with calipers just above the webbing from the bottom of the case to case walls and compare them from my lowest charge to the highest. I will use the Blazer cases since  that is the majority of my cases tested. These cases are retired and are going on my shelf as reference. My goal wasn't to please anyone, it was to put as much hard facts out as possible.

i don't think you will learn anything from measuring the case wall thickness; that data will probably not be useful to you in any way.

i am guessing that, for 9mm brass, the case head/walls will either hold the pressure or they will rupture.  i don't think that there will be any obvious signs of weakening before the case wall actually fails.  take a look at that thread.

https://www.ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/191612-9mm-kaboom-closeups.html

it would be really unfortunate if your barrel begins the tilting/unlocking phase before chamber pressures drop back down to safe levels.  one of the reasons why the 9mm Major shooters use heavier recoil springs is because it helps to delay the tilting/unlocking of the action.  i'm guessing you're not using extra stiff recoil springs in your gun

i don't think you will learn anything from measuring the case wall thickness; that data will probably not be useful to you in any way.

i am guessing that, for 9mm brass, the case head/walls will either hold the pressure or they will rupture.  i don't think that there will be any obvious signs of weakening before the case wall actually fails.  take a look at that thread.

https://www.ingunowners.com/forums/ammunition-reloading/191612-9mm-kaboom-closeups.html

it would be really unfortunate if your barrel begins the tilting/unlocking phase before chamber pressures drop back down to safe levels.  one of the reasons why the 9mm Major shooters use heavier recoil springs is because it helps to delay the tilting/unlocking of the action.  i'm guessing you're not using extra stiff recoil springs in your gun

Great read. I just book marked it.

The measuring of the brass with calipers in a certain location was from an article from Western Powders written by Kevin Newberry.

http://blog.westernpowders.com/2015/11/important-steps-to-9-x-19mm-p-defense-load-success/

All 19 Gen 5 spent cases still plunk into the chamber and can be spun 360° without feeling a bump which, correct me if I'm wrong, means the brass was extracted after pressures have dropped.

The P365 on the other hand some 5.1gr cases and all 5.3 thru 6.7gr cases do not plunk back into the chamber. I'm guessing that is a normal biproduct of this particular firearm? IIRC I tried to plunk spent factory Blazer Brass cases back into the P365 chamber and none of them would fall in under it's own weight. I did not see any extractor printing on the bottom side of the rims. I can't conclude though that it does not mean the case is being extracted under some pressure.

Jase

Just don't do this kind of experiments any more OK?
We don't need to lose any more gun friends.
Either you or innocent bystanders.

IIRC, about 2 years ago my friend was hit by shrapnel over on the rifle range side.
It was from a 9mm carbine on the adjacent bench. The shrapnel penetrated his body and nearly killed him.
I'll probably see him on Sunday so I can ask him again exactly what got hit.

Jase

Just don't do this kind of experiments any more OK?
We don't need to lose any more gun friends.
Either you or innocent bystanders.

IIRC, about 2 years ago my friend was hit by shrapnel over on the rifle range side.
It was from a 9mm carbine on the adjacent bench. The shrapnel penetrated his body and nearly killed him.
I'll probably see him on Sunday so I can ask him again exactly what got hit.

Was this from a guy who used the wrong barrel shroud on his 9mm carbine? 

Also I think last year someone was injured on the pistol side by a revolver that exploded.  Shooter was fine, neighbor got seriously injured.  I don't remember if it was reloads or factory ammo that was used.

Was this from a guy who used the wrong barrel shroud on his 9mm carbine? 

...
I dunno

Was this from a guy who used the wrong barrel shroud on his 9mm carbine? 

Also I think last year someone was injured on the pistol side by a revolver that exploded.  Shooter was fine, neighbor got seriously injured.  I don't remember if it was reloads or factory ammo that was used.

IIRC the round fired out of battery partially due to the blowback design. Schrapnel seriously injured the neighboring shooter. Luckily he recovered.

I believe the revolver incident you speak of was at the Silhouette Range.

jase90, the info you've posted is very informative and I appreciate you posting. I do believe that published data is conservative but I also feel you are playing with fire. Be cautious, very cautious.

IIRC the round fired out of battery partially due to the blowback design. Schrapnel seriously injured the neighboring shooter. Luckily he recovered.

I believe the revolver incident you speak of was at the Silhouette Range.

correct on both, bushido

I will do my best to post the stats and case wall measurements either tonight or tomorrow night. Covering a weekend shift at work.

I will do my best to post the stats and case wall measurements either tonight or tomorrow night. Covering a weekend shift at work.

The article you referenced above is way too long for me to read (short attentions span  ). With rifle calibers, case head measurements are done with brand new brass and measured with micrometers that are capable of ten thousanths increments. Not many calipers are capable of that kind of accuracy that I know of. Mitutoyos are .0005" if I recall correctly.

The article you referenced above is way too long for me to read (short attentions span  ). With rifle calibers, case head measurements are done with brand new brass and measured with micrometers that are capable of ten thousanths increments. Not many calipers are capable of that kind of accuracy that I know of. Mitutoyos are .0005" if I recall correctly.

I'm not going to make it to the bench tonight. But what I did was measured a batch of case heads of a factory loaded standard pressure Blazer Brass case or my stadnard pressure reloads, and compared them to the exact same spot mentioned in the article with my over the "over the book" charges.

IIRC standard factory and standard pressure reloaded Blazer Brass cases consistently measured .388" at the location .200" above the rim. The highest charge of 6.7gr varied between .389" thru .3895" at the same location. My digital calipers can only discriminate the 10,000ths of an inch in increments of 5. So if I want to measure more accurately I will need micrometer.

I will eventually get every little detail I find on this post eventually and share it with you guys through pictures.

IIRC the round fired out of battery partially due to the blowback design. Schrapnel seriously injured the neighboring shooter. Luckily he recovered.
I believe the revolver incident you speak of was at the Silhouette Range.

Sounds like there was another incident at the pistol range on Friday. Seems to happen often over there, lot more than rifles...