Why does it make sense for security guards to carry in the open but not everyday people ?

Because security guards are already a target. They are visible and they are going the be the first target. Anyone intent on robbing or shooting up the place is going to look at the security guard first.

By having your firearm concealed you don't make yourself the first target. You retain the element of surprise. By having the firearm concealed you have a better fighting chance in most situations.

Because security guards are already a target. They are visible and they are going the be the first target. Anyone intent on robbing or shooting up the place is going to look at the security guard first.

By having your firearm concealed you don't make yourself the first target. You retain the element of surprise. By having the firearm concealed you have a better fighting chance in most situations.

Because car drivers are already a target of car thieves. They are visible and they are going the be the first target. Anyone intent on carjacking is going to look at the car with a driver in it first.

By having your car locked in your garage all the time you don't make yourself the first target. You retain the element of being carless in public. By having the car locked away you have a better chance of not being carjacked in most situations.

Because security guards are already a target. They are visible and they are going the be the first target. Anyone intent on robbing or shooting up the place is going to look at the security guard first.

By having your firearm concealed you don't make yourself the first target. You retain the element of surprise. By having the firearm concealed you have a better fighting chance in most situations.

Also armed security guards and police are focused on security and situational awareness, always aboserving for threats.

Regular people are focused on everyday stuff like what to eat, talking, thinking about what movie to see, etc. They maybe focused on safety if they're like walking alone late at nigh.  Needs discipline, training and practice though which many people think they have but don't have.

1. The only thing legally "on the table" in Hawaii is open carry. Concealed carry is gone, as a "right". Does anyone really believe that given the history of the "respect" shown by the legislature, the executive (including law enforcement), and judicial branches to the right to bear arms concealed that they will now acquiesce when begged to grant such a "privilege"? That's a fucking joke. Sure, the Supreme Court could hand down some decision where they negate their previous rulings that concealed carry is NOT a right and may thus be "regulated", including regulated de facto out of existence. I guess we'll have to wait and see if SCOTUS overturns Scalia/Heller and Alito/McDonald.

2. The Young case, which devolved into open carry almost by accident, should have included challenging the long gun carry restrictions. When you live in a subdivision where dead bodies turn up on the side of the road regularly, it'd be "nice" if a neighborhood watch-type patrol could be armed with long guns.

3. Re all the critics of open carry: show me the evidence. All this blather about "your gun will be taken"/"you'll be a target"... what are the actual statistics on that?

One "study", funded by the notorious civilian disarmament advocate Joyce Foundation, found that approximately 300,000 people CARRY OPENLY EVERY DAY. That's based on 2015 stats, and I'd suspect given all the less restrictive laws put in place (including permitless carry at the state level), that it's far more than that now. But let's leave it at that likely very low-ball figure. That means that every YEAR there are 109,500,000 person days of open carry. Now please tell me, of those entire 109,500,000 days of open carrying, how many:

1. attempts are made to take guns from open carriers

2. how many of those are successful attempts to take guns from open carriers

3. how many death/injuries are there from their own firearm after taken from open carriers

Great. Once you've provided me with that data, please compare it to the exact same data for concealed carriers. Once we have that data for both groups, please tell me, based on the rates for each group of each type of incident, what the restrictions should be for each type of carry... I mean theoretically, of course, independent of whether either is a right or a privilege.

Here's an article briefly discussing the "study": https://www.futurity.org/americans-carrying-guns-1581112/

Here's the actual medical journal "study": https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/pdf/10.2105/AJPH.2017.304072

Here's an article that discusses incidents of firearms taken from both open and concealed carriers (and includes discussion of some of the other claims re the "dangers" of open carry): https://www.frontiercarry.org/open-carry.html

I spoke with a lawyer at the nra meeting who thought that our easiest path to ccw was to get open and make the sheeple so uncomfortable at the sight of us carrying that they would complain and a ccw option would get put on the table.

I spoke with a lawyer at the nra meeting who thought that our easiest path to ccw was to get open and make the sheeple so uncomfortable at the sight of us carrying that they would complain and a ccw option would get put on the table.

I understand your SN now.  When I met you at the revolver I was like huh?  But now that I see it, it makes sense.

HIFICOs long term goal is to create the environment to pass CCW in the legislature in 4 years and after Open Carry is won at SCOTUS.

Also armed security guards and police are focused on security and situational awareness, always aboserving for threats.

Regular people are focused on everyday stuff like what to eat, talking, thinking about what movie to see, etc. They maybe focused on safety if they're like walking alone late at nigh.  Needs discipline, training and practice though which many people think they have but don't have.

In a restaurant  I sit where I can see the front door.
The first thing I do when I go into a strange building
is identify exits and entrances.
I don't go to movies.  I rarely go to malls.
I avoid public gatherings.
I eyeball everyone around me to access threats, cops
being the biggest threats.
I think more people than you think do this all the time,
but then I grew up in SE Los Angeles county.  I vividly
remember Watts riots, and I lived on the other side
of the Los Angeles river from Compton.

I spoke with a lawyer at the nra meeting who thought that our easiest path to ccw was to get open and make the sheeple so uncomfortable at the sight of us carrying that they would complain and a ccw option would get put on the table.

This is what will happen if you open carry even if it is legal.
If someone complains the cops will contact you and attempt
to accuse you of "Brandishing" which is illegal. They will do what ever
they want to, you will have to go to hire a lawyer and go to court. 
They call this " processing you through the system".  They know it will get tossed
from court. They probably won't even show up in court, but the economic
damage has been done, and you'll get a very rusty gun back,  get the idea?
This was routinely done in Bellevue, WA( East of Seattle) in the 1990's.
Our cops here have even less professional bearing than those
of Bellevue, so figure out what we will have to deal with.

Because car drivers are already a target of car thieves. They are visible and they are going the be the first target. Anyone intent on carjacking is going to look at the car with a driver in it first.

By having your car locked in your garage all the time you don't make yourself the first target. You retain the element of being carless in public. By having the car locked away you have a better chance of not being carjacked in most situations.

That really isn't a very good argument or even comparable for that matter.

Also armed security guards and police are focused on security and situational awareness, always aboserving for threats.

Regular people are focused on everyday stuff like what to eat, talking, thinking about what movie to see, etc. They maybe focused on safety if they're like walking alone late at nigh.  Needs discipline, training and practice though which many people think they have but don't have.

There was an instance a few years back where a guy with a legal carry permit was tackled in Walmart by someone from behind. It isn't clear whether the firearm was concealed or open but I think the video pretty clearly illustrates how people knowing you have a gun puts you at a disadvantage. The guy in the video was tackled from behind and his gun was taken from him. IIRC the guy who tackled the innocent man ended up getting arrested later but it shows how initially he was overpowered quickly because the guy knew he had a gun.

Action is always faster than reaction so while a person with open carry can draw faster they are at a disadvantage when it comes to someone who already knows you have a gun. Everyone knows a cop will have a gun, not everyone can tell a random person has a gun.

There was an instance a few years back where a guy with a legal carry permit was tackled in Walmart by someone from behind. It isn't clear whether the firearm was concealed or open but I think the video pretty clearly illustrates how people knowing you have a gun puts you at a disadvantage. The guy in the video was tackled from behind and his gun was taken from him. IIRC the guy who tackled the innocent man ended up getting arrested later but it shows how initially he was overpowered quickly because the guy knew he had a gun.

Action is always faster than reaction so while a person with open carry can draw faster they are at a disadvantage when it comes to someone who already knows you have a gun. Everyone knows a cop will have a gun, not everyone can tell a random person has a gun.

That really isn't a very good argument or even anything more than a single anecdote for that matter.

That really isn't a very good argument or even anything more than a single anecdote for that matter.

It illustrates my whole argument.
The guy who got tackled (victim) was armed.
The guy who attacked the victim knew he was armed.
The victim couldn't see it coming, hence he was at a serious disadvantage.

In this case the guy was lucky that he was attacked by a misguided good samaritan and not someone intending him harm.

There are very few situations where someone should open carry.

There was an instance a few years back where a guy with a legal carry permit was tackled in Walmart by someone from behind. It isn't clear whether the firearm was concealed or open but I think the video pretty clearly illustrates how people knowing you have a gun puts you at a disadvantage. The guy in the video was tackled from behind and his gun was taken from him. IIRC the guy who tackled the innocent man ended up getting arrested later but it shows how initially he was overpowered quickly because the guy knew he had a gun.

Action is always faster than reaction so while a person with open carry can draw faster they are at a disadvantage when it comes to someone who already knows you have a gun. Everyone knows a cop will have a gun, not everyone can tell a random person has a gun.

I'd sue

This is what will happen if you open carry even if it is legal.  If someone complains the cops will contact you and attempt  to accuse you of "Brandishing" which is illegal. They will do what ever they want to, you will have to go to hire a lawyer and go to court.   They call this " processing you through the system".  They know it will get tossed from court. They probably won't even show up in court, but the economic damage has been done, and you'll get a very rusty gun back,  get the idea?  This was routinely done in Bellevue, WA( East of Seattle) in the 1990's. Our cops here have even less professional bearing than those of Bellevue, so figure out what we will have to deal with.

Got to keep working on the wife about that second home in northern Arizona.

Still wondering what to do if I live there part time and move any firearms I might have over.  Even a bolted down safe in a vacant house is a risk.  Doubt any local dealers would want to bother with storing stuff while I visit the wife.

Once any toys are out of the reach of HPD, they are not coming back.

Then there's the real world, where the fact is the government is in ALL our shit, all the time, everywhere. If you chose to exercise your natural, fundamental, individual, enumerated, constitutionally-protected civil right to bear arms openly outside your home in a "public" place, you will be subject to arrest, prosecution and imprisonment... if you are not killed outright because a  cop "felt" he was "in danger" just observing you open carrying a firearm in a holster. Don't get me wrong, I suspect I hate all this fucking bullshit as much as anyone, but we are where we are, and we need to have strategies that will get us a far as possible as quickly as possible (otherwise I'll be dead). Open carry will have more of an effect on the public psyche, especially here in Hawaii, and we should have had open carry of long arms part of the Young suit. We need to melt as many snowflakes as possible as quickly as possible. Now I'm dreaming...

Puna, it took me a while to find this.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." - Thomas Jefferson.
We need to beat this in to our fellow citizens brains.

Puna, it took me a while to find this.
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." - Thomas Jefferson.
We need to beat this in to our fellow citizens brains.

You mean the same way they've beat into our brains that we must comply with all their rights-violating bullshit? 

A few years ago I really really REALLY wanted to inform the county prosecutor and the chief of police that I was going to appear in downtown Hilo at a particular public location at a particular time openly carrying a holstered loaded handgun, specifically as a demonstration of my rights that their infringing laws made a crime. I wasn't able to find any attorney anywhere that would defend me pro bono, and someone who I believe is familiar enough with the law "strongly encouraged" me NOT to do it. So I didn't... because the consequences would have been debilitating... but I concur with Jefferson, we have an ethical, moral, and civic responsibility and duty to disobey "unjust" laws. Not that anyone here would do that, but Jefferson was just sayin'...