Maunakea TMT Protests (Read 273001 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #640 on: August 16, 2019, 10:20:37 AM »
What you, I, or this entire forum personally thinks in regard to this issue is irrelevant.      :thumbsup:

It is the civil authority and the US Government's view of its illegal annexation of Hawaii that matters and it seems from what we see with TMT, they do take it seriously.      :shaka:

For someone with an irrelevant opinion, you sure do trigger easily!   :rofl:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

yurcarmeean

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #641 on: August 16, 2019, 12:52:45 PM »
I think the real question is what constitutes as the "mountain" or the "mauna"?   we all know mauna kea is the tallest mountain on earth because we know that "mountains" do not simply just consist of mountain "tops" or peaks or whatever part of the mountain land above sea level .  So, if these activists are truly protesting desecration of the mountain,  would they not themselves also be in violation of their own protest?  Because they live on the island, they utilize the sewer systems, and public infrastructure that exists on the "mountain" or "aina", they drive cars which pollute the air, they utilize the roads that lead up the mauna kea access road.   Imagine all the gas they have consumed hauling all the equipment and personnel up the mountain.  The activists use smart phones and computers which are charged using electricity generated by the state and delivered through the government funded grid.  I see a lot of hypocrisy in this protest.  With that being said I do commend them on maintaining peace as a pillar of their protest (unlike Hong Kong...smh... but that's another topic). 
If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready.

mrgaf

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #642 on: August 16, 2019, 07:32:08 PM »
I think the real question is what constitutes as the "mountain" or the "mauna"?   we all know mauna kea is the tallest mountain on earth because we know that "mountains" do not simply just consist of mountain "tops" or peaks or whatever part of the mountain land above sea level .  So, if these activists are truly protesting desecration of the mountain,  would they not themselves also be in violation of their own protest?  Because they live on the island, they utilize the sewer systems, and public infrastructure that exists on the "mountain" or "aina", they drive cars which pollute the air, they utilize the roads that lead up the mauna kea access road.   Imagine all the gas they have consumed hauling all the equipment and personnel up the mountain.  The activists use smart phones and computers which are charged using electricity generated by the state and delivered through the government funded grid.  I see a lot of hypocrisy in this protest.  With that being said I do commend them on maintaining peace as a pillar of their protest (unlike Hong Kong...smh... but that's another topic).

If memory serves me correctly Mount Lam Lam in Guam is the tallest mountain in the world with 98% of it under the water in the Mariana Trench  :shake: :wacko: :D
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #643 on: August 16, 2019, 08:40:06 PM »
If memory serves me correctly Mount Lam Lam in Guam is the tallest mountain in the world with 98% of it under the water in the Mariana Trench  :shake: :wacko: :D

Nope.

Mt Everest is the tallest mountain above sea level,

Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain from base (Pacific Ocean floor) to peak.

Chimborazo in Ecuador is the highest mountain above the center of the Earth.  Being just one degree south of the equator, it's situated on the "bulge" of the Earth around the equator, increasing the distance from the Earth's center.

Mount LamLam in Guam is not the tallest mountain from base to peak.  Challenger Deep in the Marianas Trench is the deepest point on Earth.  So, if you take Challenger Deep as the base of LamLam, then the mountain becomes the tallest mountain in Earth.  The problem with that is, if you measure from the deepest part of the Marianas Trench that's adjacent to Guam, it does't beat Mauna Kea.

So, it really all depends on where you start measuring.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #644 on: August 16, 2019, 08:57:28 PM »
On the news the other week they were saying for a SHORT while some scientists thought Mauna Kea was the 2nd tallest when measured from its base below the ocean surface.  Further study and measurements reaffirmed that Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain when measured from a mountain's base. 
Happily living in Puna

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #645 on: August 16, 2019, 10:14:17 PM »
On the news the other week they were saying for a SHORT while some scientists thought Mauna Kea was the 2nd tallest when measured from its base below the ocean surface.  Further study and measurements reaffirmed that Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain when measured from a mountain's base.

Must have been girls doing the previous measurements.  Any guy knows you always measure from the lowest part of the base to get the maximum .... height possible.   :rofl:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #646 on: August 17, 2019, 06:41:43 AM »
Nope.

Mt Everest is the tallest mountain above sea level,

Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain from base (Pacific Ocean floor) to peak.

Chimborazo in Ecuador is the highest mountain above the center of the Earth.  Being just one degree south of the equator, it's situated on the "bulge" of the Earth around the equator, increasing the distance from the Earth's center.

Mount LamLam in Guam is not the tallest mountain from base to peak.  Challenger Deep in the Marianas Trench is the deepest point on Earth.  So, if you take Challenger Deep as the base of LamLam, then the mountain becomes the tallest mountain in Earth.  The problem with that is, if you measure from the deepest part of the Marianas Trench that's adjacent to Guam, it does't beat Mauna Kea.

So, it really all depends on where you start measuring.
And I bet there are people (okay, at least one person) somewhere who "knows" that they are all "sacred" and should not be defiled in any way by people who believe differently than them. and probably should be restored to their own country/kingdom/fascist dictatorship.

mrgaf

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #647 on: August 17, 2019, 07:12:46 AM »
Nope.

Mt Everest is the tallest mountain above sea level,

Mauna Kea is the tallest mountain from base (Pacific Ocean floor) to peak.

Chimborazo in Ecuador is the highest mountain above the center of the Earth.  Being just one degree south of the equator, it's situated on the "bulge" of the Earth around the equator, increasing the distance from the Earth's center.

Mount LamLam in Guam is not the tallest mountain from base to peak.  Challenger Deep in the Marianas Trench is the deepest point on Earth.  So, if you take Challenger Deep as the base of LamLam, then the mountain becomes the tallest mountain in Earth.  The problem with that is, if you measure from the deepest part of the Marianas Trench that's adjacent to Guam, it does't beat Mauna Kea.

So, it really all depends on where you start measuring.

Cool info... :thumbsup:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #648 on: August 17, 2019, 08:20:43 AM »
Must have been girls doing the previous measurements.  Any guy knows you always measure from the lowest part of the base to get the maximum .... height possible.   :rofl:
I start my measurement from the back.  LOL
Happily living in Puna

mrgaf

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #649 on: August 17, 2019, 09:53:26 PM »
I start my measurement from the back.  LOL

 :shake: :shake: :shake:
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #650 on: August 18, 2019, 07:22:07 AM »
Facts vs. myths: Debunking oft-cited claims abut TMT

By MICHAEL BRESTOVANSKY Hawaii Tribune-Herald | Sunday, August 18, 2019, 12:05 a.m.

Some opposition to the Thirty Meter Telescope is being fueled by prominent people — celebrities, musicians and politicians — who have offered their support to the Maunakea “protectors” via social media.

However, as opposing voices gain traction online, so do several misconceptions or untruths about the TMT project itself, making it hard for those unfamiliar with the issue to sort fact from fiction. Here is a collection of some of the myths versus the facts about the telescope.

Myth: Dynamite will be used to prepare the TMT site for construction.

“We will not be using dynamite in the construction of TMT at all,” said Sandra Dawson, TMT’s manager of Hawaii community affairs. The use of blasting was decided against in the early planning phases out of concerns that it would seem offensive, although Dawson admitted the construction process will consequently be slower.

Myth: There remain culturally significant architectural sites or protected species at the TMT location.

Extensive environmental impact studies have identified no such areas on the five-acre site, Dawson said. The nearest site of cultural significance is located 200 yards away from the TMT location; Dawson said one of the first actions of the construction team will be to visibly cordon off that site so that there is no chance that it could be destroyed accidentally.

Similarly, the wekiu bug — an insect endemic to the region that is often considered threatened by the present development of the summit — nests in cinder cones that are not close to the TMT site and will not be disturbed during construction.

Myth: The construction process will feature extensive drilling, potentially thousands of feet downward.

Dawson said this misconception might have been fueled by a core-sample drilling survey performed four years ago in order to determine whether the TMT site is safe to build upon. Beyond this, Dawson said there will be no drilling beyond the excavation necessary to set the TMT foundation.

Myth: The telescope will draw water from nearby Lake Waiau, considered a spiritual place.

Dawson said fears about the summit observatories draining Lake Waiau have been common over the years, particularly several years ago when the lake shrank during a drought. Because the lake is fed only by rainwater, it would be unfeasible to use water from the lake at all, even if the lake were not more than a mile away from the site. Instead, TMT will rely on water transported to the site from elsewhere on the island, like the other observatories.

Myth: Contaminants from TMT — whether from construction or the observatory itself — will leach into the island’s groundwater.

Don Thomas, geochemist and director for the Center for the Study of Active Volcanoes at the University of Hawaii Manoa Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, has previously said water infiltration from the summit would take more than 2,000 years to reach sea level, if it reaches sea level at all.

Dawson added that the construction process will be “by far the most careful construction project seen on Hawaii Island.” Oil pans will be placed under all construction vehicles at the summit and will be diligently checked and emptied, Dawson said and “there are no contaminants that haven’t been addressed.”

Gordon Squires, TMT’s vice president of external relations, added that mercury will not be used at TMT, and the observatory also will forbid use of any mirror-cleaning substance that is too caustic.

All wastewater will be transported down the mountain, not disposed of at the summit.

Myth: There are military applications for TMT, such as identifying and targeting foreign satellites or missiles.

None of the Maunakea observatories, Squires said, are suited for observing such near-Earth objects.

“These telescopes move slowly,” Squires said. “If we wanted to point TMT at an incoming missile, by the time we were pointed at it, it would be gone, it would be too late.”

Myth: TMT will be powered by a nuclear reactor.

Dawson said TMT will draw power from the island’s grid, provided by HELCO. The specific power-drain requirements have evolved over the years as technology becomes more energy-efficient.

Myth: TMT will be rendered obsolete by other telescopes elsewhere, or else does nothing that existing observatories cannot already do.

“We have 13 observatories on the mountain right now,” Squires said. “And they’re all involved in frontier studies, cutting-edge science. Pretty much every week, the Maunakea observatories discover something new. And some of them are 50 years old, so they don’t just become obsolete after a few years.”

Furthermore, the 30-meter mirror array that gives TMT its name allows for sharper images than any other telescope at Maunakea summit.

Myth: Couldn’t TMT be built in space, like the Hubble Space Telescope, to circumvent both the Maunakea controversy and any distortions caused by Earth’s atmosphere?

The Hubble’s mirror assembly is less than 3 meters wide, Squires said, with the full space telescope only 4 meters wide. TMT’s mirror array is 10 times the width of Hubble’s; Squires said no country currently has the capability to launch a telescope of TMT’s size into space, and likely will not in the lifetimes of anyone currently alive.

Myth: The jobs that TMT will bring to the island will largely be for haoles (Caucasians) with advanced science degrees.

Official TMT estimates indicate that the observatory will require about 140 full-time positions, 20% of which will be science positions.

Most of the positions — 40% — will be technical and engineering jobs, with software and IT jobs making up another 10%. Dawson said Maunakea observatories prefer to hire and train kama‘aina for these positions, as approximately 50% of mainland hires tend to seek new jobs off-island after two years.

Meanwhile, the construction process will employ 300 local and specialized construction jobs. Dawson said TMT signed a memorandum to hire union labor and pay union wages for the construction.

Myth: The TMT project does not have the $1.4 billion or more estimated to construct the project.

Squires said the existing TMT partners — the National Astronomical Observatory of Japan, the National Astronomical Observatories of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, India’s Department of Science and Technology, Canada’s National Research Council, the University of California and the California Institute of Technology — have made a commitment to build the telescope, while opportunities remain open for additional partners to sign onto the project. The four governments among the partners jointly represent about half the planet’s population, “so they should be good for store credit,” Squires said.

Myth: The primary purpose of the telescope is to seek out a new planet for humanity to live on after Earth is ravaged by climate change, pollution and war.

“There are many people in the astronomy community who are worried about planetary defense,” Squires said, conceding that discovering potentially habitable planets is a possible use of TMT. However, there will be other applications for TMT as well, while the construction of TMT will not mean that other efforts to combat the ecological degradation of the planet will end or be fruitless.

punaperson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #651 on: August 18, 2019, 08:19:26 AM »
Latest Ann Coulter column commenting on the "manifesto" of the El Paso Walmart killer and relating it to the various factions who chant "racism". Some parts of it read, with name changes, exactly as if they apply to the racist criminals blocking the road at Mauna Kea.

For example:

The student group MEChA -- Chicano Student Movement of Aztlan -- was formed 50 years ago with the claim that "Aztlan (i.e. the entire Southwest) belongs to those who plant the seeds, water the fields, and gather the crops and not to the foreign Europeans."

There are Mexican activist groups with names like "Mexicans Without Borders" and "La Raza," or "The Race." (Motto: "Por la raza todo, fuera de la raza nada" -- "For the race, everything; outside the race, nothing.")

During the periodic eruptions of illegal immigrants in California, mobs of illegals wave the Mexican flag, fly the U.S. flag upside down and chant crowd-pleasers like, "Who are you calling 'immigrant,' pilgrim?"

Read the whole thing:

WHAT THE EL PASO SHOOTER LEARNED FROM IMMIGRANTS

http://www.anncoulter.com/columns/2019-08-14.html

groveler

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #652 on: August 18, 2019, 11:27:18 AM »
Facts vs. myths: Debunking oft-cited claims abut TMT

By MICHAEL BRESTOVANSKY Hawaii Tribune-Herald | Sunday, August 18, 2019, 12:05 a.m.

Some opposition to the Thirty Meter Telescope is being fueled by prominent people — celebrities, musicians and politicians — who have offered their support to the Maunakea “protectors” via social media.

However, as opposing voices gain traction online, so do several misconceptions or untruths about the TMT project itself, making it hard for those unfamiliar with the issue to sort fact from fiction. Here is a collection of some of the myths versus the facts about the telescope.

Myth: Dynamite will be used to prepare the TMT site for construction.

“We will not be using dynamite in the construction of TMT at all,” said Sandra Dawson, TMT’s manager of Hawaii community affairs. The use of blasting was decided against in the early planning phases out of concerns that it would seem offensive, although Dawson admitted the construction process will consequently be slower.

Myth: There remain culturally significant architectural sites or protected species at the TMT location.

Extensive environmental impact studies have identified no such areas on the five-acre site, Dawson said. The nearest site of cultural significance is located 200 yards away from the TMT location; Dawson said one of the first actions of the construction team will be to visibly cordon off that site so that there is no chance that it could be destroyed accidentally.

Similarly, the wekiu bug — an insect endemic to the region that is often considered threatened by the present development of the summit — nests in cinder cones that are not close to the TMT site and will not be disturbed during construction.

Myth: The construction process will feature extensive drilling, potentially thousands of feet downward.

Dawson said this misconception might have been fueled by a core-sample drilling survey performed four years ago in order to determine whether the TMT site is safe to build upon. Beyond this, Dawson said there will be no drilling beyond the excavation necessary to set the TMT foundation.

Myth: The telescope will draw water from nearby Lake Waiau, considered a spiritual place.

Dawson said fears about the summit observatories draining Lake Waiau have been common over the years, particularly several years ago when the lake shrank during a drought. Because the lake is fed only by rainwater, it would be unfeasible to use water from the lake at all, even if the lake were not more than a mile away from the site. Instead, TMT will rely on water transported to the site from elsewhere on the island, like the other observatories.

Myth: Contaminants from TMT — whether from construction or the observatory itself — will leach into the island’s groundwater.

Don Thomas, geochemist and director for the Center for the Study of Active Volcanoes at the University of Hawaii Manoa Institute of Geophysics and Planetology, has previously said water infiltration from the summit would take more than 2,000 years to reach sea level, if it reaches sea level at all.

Dawson added that the construction process will be “by far the most careful construction project seen on Hawaii Island.” Oil pans will be placed under all construction vehicles at the summit and will be diligently checked and emptied, Dawson said and “there are no contaminants that haven’t been addressed.”

Gordon Squires, TMT’s vice president of external relations, added that mercury will not be used at TMT, and the observatory also will forbid use of any mirror-cleaning substance that is too caustic.

All wastewater will be transported down the mountain, not disposed of at the summit.

Myth: There are military applications for TMT, such as identifying and targeting foreign satellites or missiles.

None of the Maunakea observatories, Squires said, are suited for observing such near-Earth objects.

“These telescopes move slowly,” Squires said. “If we wanted to point TMT at an incoming missile, by the time we were pointed at it, it would be gone, it would be too late.”

Myth: TMT will be powered by a nuclear reactor.

Dawson said TMT will draw power from the island’s grid, provided by HELCO. The specific power-drain requirements have evolved over the years as technology becomes more energy-efficient.

Myth: TMT will be rendered obsolete by other telescopes elsewhere, or else does nothing that existing observatories cannot already do.

“We have 13 observatories on the mountain right now,” Squires said. “And they’re all involved in frontier studies, cutting-edge science. Pretty much every week, the Maunakea observatories discover something new. And some of them are 50 years old, so they don’t just become obsolete after a few years.”

Furthermore, the 30-meter mirror array that gives TMT its name allows for sharper images than any other telescope at Maunakea summit.

Myth: Couldn’t TMT be built in space, like the Hubble Space Telescope, to circumvent both the Maunakea controversy and any distortions caused by Earth’s atmosphere?

The Hubble’s mirror assembly is less than 3 meters wide, Squires said, with the full space telescope only 4 meters wide. TMT’s mirror array is 10 times the width of Hubble’s; Squires said no country currently has the capability to launch a telescope of TMT’s size into space, and likely will not in the lifetimes of anyone currently alive.

Myth: The jobs that TMT will bring to the island will largely be for haoles (Caucasians) with advanced science degrees.

Official TMT estimates indicate that the observatory will require about 140 full-time positions, 20% of which will be science positions.

Most of the positions — 40% — will be technical and engineering jobs, with software and IT jobs making up another 10%. Dawson said Maunakea observatories prefer to hire and train kama‘aina for these positions, as approximately 50% of mainland hires tend to seek new jobs off-island after two years.

Meanwhile, the construction process will employ 300 local and specialized construction jobs. Dawson said TMT signed a memorandum to hire union labor and pay union wages for the construction.

Myth: The TMT project does not have the $1.4 billion or more estimated to construct the project.

Squires said the existing TMT partners — the National Astronomical Observatory of Japan, the National Astronomical Observatories of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, India’s Department of Science and Technology, Canada’s National Research Council, the University of California and the California Institute of Technology — have made a commitment to build the telescope, while opportunities remain open for additional partners to sign onto the project. The four governments among the partners jointly represent about half the planet’s population, “so they should be good for store credit,” Squires said.

Myth: The primary purpose of the telescope is to seek out a new planet for humanity to live on after Earth is ravaged by climate change, pollution and war.

“There are many people in the astronomy community who are worried about planetary defense,” Squires said, conceding that discovering potentially habitable planets is a possible use of TMT. However, there will be other applications for TMT as well, while the construction of TMT will not mean that other efforts to combat the ecological degradation of the planet will end or be fruitless.
Very Good comment!
I will only add
"Dawson said Maunakea observatories prefer to hire and train kama‘aina for these positions, as approximately 50% of mainland hires tend to seek new jobs off-island after two years".
Many of the people hired by Observatories don't realize just how rural the big island really is.  If you didn't grow up here you probably won't adapt well. I'd say it is well over a 50% attrition rate.
Very many observatory people are from Oahu. I can't stand that island, but it is easy for them to go "home" so they stay and work here on the Big island for many years.
A 20 minute flight and they are back in the sewer city, Honolulu.
Once again good comment!






drck1000

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #653 on: August 18, 2019, 12:32:22 PM »
Was talking about TMT with a couple of friends of friends over the weekend. They are open minded for the most part and are willing to listen to alternative views. Though their “facts” are often reiteration of what they were told by folks they respect. Be it relatives, community leaders, etc. One said they take those statements as fact since those folks are typically held to a higher standard of scrutiny in what they say. But they are super sure that those are facts.

One of the myths that they were completely sold on was that the foundation of TMT needed a 500 foot deep excavation to counter the high winds experienced at the site. They we’re ABSOUTELY sure they were right. Well, the foundation excavation planned is about 20 feet. As mentioned above it appears the 500 foot depth number came probably came from exploratory borings to develop the design.

Anyways, that was my point about constant repeating of opinions doesn’t make something fact, but in many case about TMT “facts”, that is what I had encountered many times.

RSN172

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #654 on: August 19, 2019, 09:33:23 PM »
Flew to Oahu from Hilo today.  Couple Hawaiian wahines were across me and  a few others in the other rows.  They came to visit the mauna.  The one across me told another one this is the 2nd time she visited the mauna and is planning to come again in a couple months.  So why only now you feel it is important to visit the mauna?  Was it not sacred and important to you before?  One Hawaiian guy said he came from Wyoming.  Glad the mauna is creating some tourism for the BI.
Happily living in Puna

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #655 on: August 20, 2019, 02:20:15 AM »
Flew to Oahu from Hilo today.  Couple Hawaiian wahines were across me and  a few others in the other rows.  They came to visit the mauna.  The one across me told another one this is the 2nd time she visited the mauna and is planning to come again in a couple months.  So why only now you feel it is important to visit the mauna?  Was it not sacred and important to you before?  One Hawaiian guy said he came from Wyoming.  Glad the mauna is creating some tourism for the BI.

I'm curious why people think they have to go there to worship/pray?  Muslims don't fly to Mecca 5 times a day.  They just point themselves in the general direction of their holy city and chant.

I guess they're coming more for selfies and Summer vacation.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

macsak

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #656 on: August 20, 2019, 05:17:51 AM »
I'm curious why people think they have to go there to worship/pray?  Muslims don't fly to Mecca 5 times a day.  They just point themselves in the general direction of their holy city and chant.

I guess they're coming more for selfies and Summer vacation.

virtue signaling...

ren

Deeds Not Words

rpoL98

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #658 on: August 20, 2019, 04:09:55 PM »
nvm.

mrgaf

Re: Maunakea TMT Protests
« Reply #659 on: August 20, 2019, 04:14:26 PM »
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.  Thomas Paine.

No man can get rich in politics unless he is a crook.  It cannot be done. Harry Truman

Only good liberal is one taking a dirt nap.