FFL transfers/Gunbroker? (Read 2089 times)

TubbsMcGee

FFL transfers/Gunbroker?
« on: October 16, 2019, 11:55:22 AM »
Hey guys/gals. I was curious if anyone has ever used Gunbroker.com before? I'm wanting to sell a firearm through there and transfer it from a local FFL here to the buyers choice of their own FFL. Also, how would I go about I guess "de-registering" the firearm here before I send it out? Any input or help is appreciated, Mahalo.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: FFL transfers/Gunbroker?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2019, 12:32:11 PM »
Hey guys/gals. I was curious if anyone has ever used Gunbroker.com before? I'm wanting to sell a firearm through there and transfer it from a local FFL here to the buyers choice of their own FFL. Also, how would I go about I guess "de-registering" the firearm here before I send it out? Any input or help is appreciated, Mahalo.

There is no Hawaii "de-registration" required.  As long as you have paperwork/emails showing to whom you transferred the weapon, you're covered legally.

Now, what you may not comprehend: giving the weapon to your FFL for shipping is a transfer.  The local FFL "owns" the gun at that point.  So, your papers would show you transferred to your FFL, and the FFL's paperwork would show they transferred to an out-of-state FFL.

Only the buyer's FFL would have paperwork on the transfer to the buyer.  Simple, huh?   :wacko:  The concept is to make sure the buyer complies with local, state and federal law before receipt, and their FFL is responsible for that process.

If the firearm is a long gun, you could ship directly to their FFL via USPS or any commercial carrier, saving the extra local FFL cost. 

If it's a handgun, you can still mail it directly, but you CAN NOT use USPS -- a local FFL can, though.  You'd have to ship via FedEx, UPS, DHL, or other commercial carrier.

Using USPS is a plus, in that any theft, fraud, etc. becomes a federal offense.  Not so for commercial carrier transactions.

Having said that, the receiving FFL has a say as well.  If they have a policy to only receive out-of-state firearms via another FFL, your choice is to ask the buyer to pick another FFL with a better policy, or ask them to pay the additional (optional) shipping FFL costs.  Or, if you made a nice profit, you could eat that yourself.

Bottom line, the law doesn't require you to use a local FFL.  That's your choice or the receiving FFL's choice.

LICENSE VERIFICATION:

Require the buyer to HAVE THE FFL send you a copy of their FFL certificate.  It needs to be a signed copy.  Email and FAX are acceptable.  The FFL's address on the license must match the address to which you are shipping the firearm.

When the buyer sends you the FFL info, you can verify the license number here:

https://fflezcheck.atf.gov/fflezcheck/

Links to good info here:

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/how-to-mail-guns/

https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-us/articles/221861108-FFL-Verification

https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-us/articles/222797807-Federal-and-State-Firearms-Law-Online-Resources
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

TubbsMcGee

Re: FFL transfers/Gunbroker?
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2019, 12:39:30 AM »
There is no Hawaii "de-registration" required.  As long as you have paperwork/emails showing to whom you transferred the weapon, you're covered legally.

Now, what you may not comprehend: giving the weapon to your FFL for shipping is a transfer.  The local FFL "owns" the gun at that point.  So, your papers would show you transferred to your FFL, and the FFL's paperwork would show they transferred to an out-of-state FFL.

Only the buyer's FFL would have paperwork on the transfer to the buyer.  Simple, huh?   :wacko:  The concept is to make sure the buyer complies with local, state and federal law before receipt, and their FFL is responsible for that process.

If the firearm is a long gun, you could ship directly to their FFL via USPS or any commercial carrier, saving the extra local FFL cost. 

If it's a handgun, you can still mail it directly, but you CAN NOT use USPS -- a local FFL can, though.  You'd have to ship via FedEx, UPS, DHL, or other commercial carrier.

Using USPS is a plus, in that any theft, fraud, etc. becomes a federal offense.  Not so for commercial carrier transactions.

Having said that, the receiving FFL has a say as well.  If they have a policy to only receive out-of-state firearms via another FFL, your choice is to ask the buyer to pick another FFL with a better policy, or ask them to pay the additional (optional) shipping FFL costs.  Or, if you made a nice profit, you could eat that yourself.

Bottom line, the law doesn't require you to use a local FFL.  That's your choice or the receiving FFL's choice.

LICENSE VERIFICATION:

Require the buyer to HAVE THE FFL send you a copy of their FFL certificate.  It needs to be a signed copy.  Email and FAX are acceptable.  The FFL's address on the license must match the address to which you are shipping the firearm.

When the buyer sends you the FFL info, you can verify the license number here:

https://fflezcheck.atf.gov/fflezcheck/

Links to good info here:

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/how-to-mail-guns/

https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-us/articles/221861108-FFL-Verification

https://support.gunbroker.com/hc/en-us/articles/222797807-Federal-and-State-Firearms-Law-Online-Resources

Lots of good info here, thank you! The firearm is a long gun (AR-15), I was worried about the extra process of shipping through a local FFL. But if I can ship it directly to the buyers FFL that would save me time and money. Would I need to dissasemble the firearm before packing it or can I just leave it in one piece? Aside from asking the buyer to have their FFL send me a copy of their certificate via email, would it be wise to ask for a copy of say a license and or a bill that shows proof of who they are (just as a precautionary)? Lastly, what do you think would be the safest way of receiving the payment? If the buyer is reputable based off their history on Gunbroker, I won't be too worried but nowadays you can never be too careful with scams and people finding loopholes to get their money back. I was thinking a USPS money order or PayPal?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: FFL transfers/Gunbroker?
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2019, 10:44:17 AM »
Lots of good info here, thank you! The firearm is a long gun (AR-15), I was worried about the extra process of shipping through a local FFL. But if I can ship it directly to the buyers FFL that would save me time and money.

Would I need to dissasemble the firearm before packing it or can I just leave it in one piece?

Aside from asking the buyer to have their FFL send me a copy of their certificate via email, would it be wise to ask for a copy of say a license and or a bill that shows proof of who they are (just as a precautionary)?

Lastly, what do you think would be the safest way of receiving the payment? If the buyer is reputable based off their history on Gunbroker, I won't be too worried but nowadays you can never be too careful with scams and people finding loopholes to get their money back. I was thinking a USPS money order or PayPal?

SHIPPING:
If you read the links I posted, there are good sections on packaging and labeling.  Nothing on the outside can alert to the existence of a firearm -- never mind the addressee is a gun shop  :wacko: .  Only certain levels of service can be used, such as tracking, 2-3 day delivery, etc.  I'd add signature receipt service and not rely on the normal delivery confirmation.

The weapon needs to be unloaded, and no ammo can be in the box.  I know people ship ammo with guns all the time, but the shippers will refuse the package if they know.  Ammo is HAZMAT and requires certain safety precautions and certifications to ship.  Just use common sense for the packaging. A padded gun case or bubble wrap/lots of paper can keep it safe from drops.  A new, well constructed cardboard box with room for the item and ample packing material is all that's needed outside.  Using an inner and outer box would be prudent.  Disassembly?  Just more things to wrap in packaging and the chance to have a part go missing.  No disassembly required.

Make sure you buy insurance from the shipping company, and take pictures of the weapon before boxing to prove condition should it be damaged by the shippers.  If you have the receipt or other paperwork with the gun's value, make sure the insurance coverage limit is at least as much as the gun is worth -- not just the selling price.  The buyer should be okay with paying all shipping costs, including insurance.  Insurance protects you, not the recipient.  If the package is lost, he gets a refund from you.  You have to file a claim with the shipper.

IDENTITY:
I always call my buyers/sellers.  It gives me confidence they are not hiding online, ready to disappear on me.  No need to ask for ID -- that's the FFL's job.  With ID theft the way it is, it might be difficult to get a driver's license from the buyer. 

PAYMENT:
If you accept a personal check, wait until it clears your bank.  That normally takes 10 business days, or 12-15 calendar days depending on weekends and holidays.  Just depositing it and seeing the increase in your balance isn't good enough.  Until the issuing bank accepts it, it's not done.

if you want to require a bank check or money order (no personal checks), remember that altered checks and money orders have been used many times to scam people.  Asking for these instruments is not a substitute for waiting 10 days after you make the deposit before shipping.

Nowadays, you can safely have anyone deposit cash directly into your bank account.  They just need your bank routing ID and your account number.  Both numbers can be found at the bottom of a check for your checking account.  No PIN or password required.  If they have online access to their bank, most banks will let them easily add your account in their settings and do a transfer.  Once the money hits your account, the money is yours. 

Other than that, there's BITCOIN or other digital currencies you can set up.  No matter what, bank account transfer or digital currency, the buyer needs your account number.  I think it's pretty difficult for anyone to hack your finances with just a name, bank, and account number if the bank has any level of security at all.  If it was that easy, banks would not be allowed to print checks for anyone with routing and account numbers on them.

There are sure signs someone is pulling a scam, such as trying to rush the sale ("I'm leaving for overseas in 3 days") or they tell you they can send you a check (bank check, money order, payroll check) that's more than the selling price and asks you to send them the difference after you ship the gun.  Chances are the check is fake, and you'll at least be out the overpayment you sent them plus the cost to have the FFL ship the gun back.

Using PayPal to do gun transactions is against their terms of use.  If you get scammed, don't look to PayPal's dispute process to help you.  Use it at your own risk.  If PayPal knows the nature of the purchase, they can cancel both the buyer's and sellers PayPal privileges.

Since you're using an FFL, they can act as "escrow" for the gun.  You ship it, the FFL gets it, BUT the buyer doesn't get it from the FFL until you instruct the FFL the payment cleared.  That way, if you use electronic transfer or "check deposit & wait 10 days", you can ship it, the FFL can let the buyer know they got it, and the buyer can either transfer the cash immediately or wait until his payment clears.  Simple.

I like to deal with gun shops on Gunbroker.  They can take credit cards.  I don't mind paying the extra 3% or so knowing the credit card protection will be there if I need it.  If you have the means to accept credit cards, you might consider offering that option with the transaction fee added to the price.  Just be sure the payment processor has no policy against firearm transactions.

« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 10:57:28 AM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw