RIP pupper (Read 4044 times)

WTF?Shane

RIP pupper
« on: January 14, 2020, 06:15:36 PM »
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-secret-service-agent-shoots-dog-brooklyn-20200114-aomg6kgzdze2fbqvl6dawqb4nm-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2yjPJwLf4ZmkKAcL17JstnEo8CvcLytjkD2_ht48BCCvalLuuNengfA6s

Off-duty Secret Service agent shoots and kills dog on the street. Owners said it was leashed and shooter said it wasn't.

...meanwhile the rest of us here probably getting bit or getting doggy kisses.

Edit: New article with some corrected statements. Dog was leashed, but the owner wasn't holding it.

https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-dog-shot-brooklyn-secret-service-20200114-qtf5z65edzcbpkdp7shkada2ay-story.html#nt=interstitial-manual
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 08:29:40 AM by WTF?Shane »

ren

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2020, 06:20:53 PM »
An unarmed Belgian Shepherd was shot and killed by the imperialist govt.

#PawsUpDontShoot
#DogLivesMatter
#FascistGoons
Deeds Not Words

macsak

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2020, 07:08:10 PM »
An unarmed Belgian Shepherd was shot and killed by the imperialist govt.

#PawsUpDontShoot
#DogLivesMatter
#FascistGoons

#distressed

Bota-CS1

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2020, 08:15:46 PM »
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-secret-service-agent-shoots-dog-brooklyn-20200114-aomg6kgzdze2fbqvl6dawqb4nm-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2yjPJwLf4ZmkKAcL17JstnEo8CvcLytjkD2_ht48BCCvalLuuNengfA6s

Off-duty Secret Service agent shoots and kills dog on the street. Owners said it was leashed and shooter said it wasn't.

...meanwhile the rest of us here probably getting bit or getting doggy kisses.

Are we 100% he wasn’t ATF?
No one is coming, it’s up to us.

Legislation should never be about depriving law abiding citizens of something, but rather taking those things away from criminals.

Bota-CS1

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2020, 08:16:05 PM »
https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/ny-secret-service-agent-shoots-dog-brooklyn-20200114-aomg6kgzdze2fbqvl6dawqb4nm-story.html?fbclid=IwAR2yjPJwLf4ZmkKAcL17JstnEo8CvcLytjkD2_ht48BCCvalLuuNengfA6s

Off-duty Secret Service agent shoots and kills dog on the street. Owners said it was leashed and shooter said it wasn't.

...meanwhile the rest of us here probably getting bit or getting doggy kisses.

Are we sure he wasn’t ATF?
No one is coming, it’s up to us.

Legislation should never be about depriving law abiding citizens of something, but rather taking those things away from criminals.

changemyoil66

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2020, 09:03:57 PM »
Are we sure he wasn’t ATF?
He applied and wants to put this on his resume.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Jl808

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2020, 09:21:01 PM »
I think, therefore I am armed.
NRA Life Patron member, HRA Life member, HiFiCo Life Member, HDF member

The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.

WTF?Shane

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2020, 09:10:55 AM »
The other year, my dog squeezed past me out the front door, on my way to work. We just adopted him and was still learning him, so I didn't know what he would do. I found him outside, barking at a teenager. The kid was scared, because my dog had him cornered, but I could see that my dog was scared/confused.

Obviously, the kid wasn't armed, and I was able to retrieve my dog. Now going back to the OP, I was hoping to get a decent discussion on this topic about escalation and use of deadly force.

If you were carrying (where legally permitted), at what instance would you feel the need to stop a threatening animal? Would you risk getting scratched, bit, or mauled to prove that you feared your life?

changemyoil66

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2020, 10:05:11 AM »
The other year, my dog squeezed past me out the front door, on my way to work. We just adopted him and was still learning him, so I didn't know what he would do. I found him outside, barking at a teenager. The kid was scared, because my dog had him cornered, but I could see that my dog was scared/confused.

Obviously, the kid wasn't armed, and I was able to retrieve my dog. Now going back to the OP, I was hoping to get a decent discussion on this topic about escalation and use of deadly force.

If you were carrying (where legally permitted), at what instance would you feel the need to stop a threatening animal? Would you risk getting scratched, bit, or mauled to prove that you feared your life?

We have to factor in that some people out there do not know anything about dogs or how to work with them.  So to an untrained person, shooting a dog barking at them while they're cornered might be justified.  Or a dog chasing someone.  But if there is a barrier that cannot be broken, like a door or fence, then shooting a dog would not be justified in my eyes.  A car would not be a good barrier because the dog can go around or over.

Now let's factor in LEO's.  I'm sure across the nation, there is a section on dealing with animals during training/academy.

But it all comes down to we weren't there so we don't know how the person LEO/civilian felt/perception at that time.  Was the dog leashed?  Hard to see a leash in the heat of the moment.  But even if leashed, the owner cannot allow a dog to bark at a person.  If they cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one or be more aware when someone is walking pass them.  I've seen dog owners pull their dog to the side and be the barrier between the person walking and the dog because they know their dog might bark and scare the person.

Government agencies don't have a good track record when it comes to dogs though.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2020, 10:29:23 AM »
There are facts about dogs everyone should .earn, many of them based on the breed and exhibited behavior.

A Pit Bull is not only the most dangerous due to their physical and innate ability to latch onto a victim (animal or human) and refuse to let go, but also because they have a tendency to not bark before attacking.  They are fixated on the target, and barking is meant to warn off anyone they might feel threatened by.  Once they attack, they keep attacking until restrained or the prey is dead.  it's really hard to defend against that, so use of a weapon -- any weapon -- to defend yourself is recommended.

Large dogs like German Shepherds and Rottweilers are excellent attack dogs because of their size and weight.  It's difficult to fight off an 80+ lb dog (my GSD averages about 85-90 lbs).  Luckily, these breeds, unless trained as attack dogs, are mostly territorial.  They don't often attack when not at their home.  They'll bark, which gives the person being barked at time to be alerted and possibly find cover or otherwise react.  If you watch COPS or any show that uses trained dogs for their security work, the dogs whine and bark when they see an adversary.  But, as soon as the dog is released and ordered to attack, you don't hear any barking at all.  Bottom line -- a barking dog is normally a dog not about to attack.

Any dog can cause injuries, but if the muzzle is too small to enclose your wrist, chances are the bite will not be more than superficial.  That's not a deadly threat.

Having said that, if you're being accosted by a pack of dogs (3 or more), you have to consider the pack mentality.  If one attacks, all will probably attack.

These are not rules, but they can be used as guidelines to justify the use of lethal force over waiting to see if the attack happens.  Simply saying "I was afraid for my life" should not be accepted if the dog was incapable of posing a deadly threat.  Fear of just being bitten should not be a reason to kill it.

Dogs are considered property, no matter how much we might think of them as members of the family.  This dog that was killed is only worth what the owners paid for him or must pay to replace him.  Had the dog survived long enough to receive emergency treatment, those vet bills can be claimed in a lawsuit as well.  Beyond that, taking that life is not considered a crime.  This becomes a civil matter over the monetary value of the property destroyed.

One thing that bothers me is the Cops who shoot dogs saying "I was in fear for my life."  FEAR is what everyone is taught to NOT display when a dog is barking at you.  Showing fear only emboldens them.  Walking away slowly, while facing the dog, usually prevents escalation. 

I understand if a Cop is on the job, they can't be slowed down or distracted from human threats by a barking dog.  But, ending the dog's life should be the exception, not the rule.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

groveler

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2020, 10:50:29 AM »
The other year, my dog squeezed past me out the front door, on my way to work. We just adopted him and was still learning him, so I didn't know what he would do. I found him outside, barking at a teenager. The kid was scared, because my dog had him cornered, but I could see that my dog was scared/confused.

Obviously, the kid wasn't armed, and I was able to retrieve my dog. Now going back to the OP, I was hoping to get a decent discussion on this topic about escalation and use of deadly force.

If you were carrying (where legally permitted), at what instance would you feel the need to stop a threatening animal? Would you risk getting scratched, bit, or mauled to prove that you feared your life?
Where I lived in WA state was a sparsely populated area. it was about a 1/3 mile trip to the mail boxes all 4 of them.
routinely Black bears,bobcats, and coyotes could be seen on the road to the mail box.  I always carried and I had both CCW
and hunting licenses. One day, one of the neighbors dog, a Rottweiler left it's property and went about 200 meters
down the road towards me.  I have owned and was raised with German shepherds.  I turned to face the animal, drew
my gun, and aimed.  Just as I was about to shoot at about ten feet away, the dog suddenly froze.  I advanced and yelled GO HOME,
after a few seconds of the stand off the dog left.  I went to get my mail.
on my way back I went to the neighbors house and told her what happened.  I never saw that dog again.
Never show fear. Never run.  Nearly every animal I've ever owned will not attack if you don't run and you leave them a way out.

groveler

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2020, 11:03:46 AM »
We have to factor in that some people out there do not know anything about dogs or how to work with them.  So to an untrained person, shooting a dog barking at them while they're cornered might be justified.  Or a dog chasing someone.  But if there is a barrier that cannot be broken, like a door or fence, then shooting a dog would not be justified in my eyes.  A car would not be a good barrier because the dog can go around or over.

Now let's factor in LEO's.  I'm sure across the nation, there is a section on dealing with animals during training/academy.

But it all comes down to we weren't there so we don't know how the person LEO/civilian felt/perception at that time.  Was the dog leashed?  Hard to see a leash in the heat of the moment.  But even if leashed, the owner cannot allow a dog to bark at a person.  If they cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one or be more aware when someone is walking pass them.  I've seen dog owners pull their dog to the side and be the barrier between the person walking and the dog because they know their dog might bark and scare the person.

Government agencies don't have a good track record when it comes to dogs though.
" But even if leashed, the owner cannot allow a dog to bark at a person.  If they cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one or be more aware when someone is walking pass them."
I own acreage.  The perimeter is fully fenced. My dogs are allowed full run of the property.  I want them to bark at strange things.  They are my "Door bells".
They will bark non-stop till I am physically there to command them.  I live in a rural area and there isn't any public traffic to speak of.
just neighbors.  All my neighbors have dogs, which do the same thing.  To put it simply strangers don't have any business here.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2020, 11:24:06 AM »
" But even if leashed, the owner cannot allow a dog to bark at a person.  If they cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one or be more aware when someone is walking pass them."
I own acreage.  The perimeter is fully fenced. My dogs are allowed full run of the property.  I want them to bark at strange things.  They are my "Door bells".
They will bark non-stop till I am physically there to command them.  I live in a rural area and there isn't any public traffic to speak of.
just neighbors.  All my neighbors have dogs, which do the same thing.  To put it simply strangers don't have any business here.

The leash thing is important in public, but it's part of a broader issue.  Your dogs are your responsibility to control.  EVEN IF your dog is on a leash and you are on the other end, if the dog rounds a corner and runs into a dog/cat/person which has every right to be there as well, being on a leash is irrelevant.  If the attack occurs, you're still liable for damages and injuries.  The only thing it prevents is a criminal charge for being off leash or negligence.

Whether the dog is indoors, inside a suitable fence, or in public on a leash, you have to maintain control of your animal at all times.

The dog in the story should not have been shot if the dog was in the owner's control.  Something tells me the leash might have been too long to actually be in control.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 11:30:16 AM by Flapp_Jackson »
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Rocky

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2020, 11:34:38 AM »
having been in a similar situation, I recommend you check the laws on animal abuse, terroristic  threatening of an animal and the right to "dispatch" said animal.
In short order, you cannot shoot if it attacks you, but can shoot if it attacks your livestock.  :crazy:
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

hvybarrels

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2020, 12:08:03 PM »
It makes me wonder why the dog was barking at the SS agent. The dog could probably sense he was an asshole and was unfortunately proven correct.
The problem governments are trying to solve is the existence of your freedom.

drck1000

Re: RIP pupper
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2020, 12:32:57 PM »
" But even if leashed, the owner cannot allow a dog to bark at a person.  If they cannot control their dog, they shouldn't own one or be more aware when someone is walking pass them."
I own acreage.  The perimeter is fully fenced. My dogs are allowed full run of the property.  I want them to bark at strange things.  They are my "Door bells".
They will bark non-stop till I am physically there to command them.  I live in a rural area and there isn't any public traffic to speak of.
just neighbors.  All my neighbors have dogs, which do the same thing.  To put it simply strangers don't have any business here.
Sheeit . . . one could readily apply that to some people's kids these days. . .