Putting wife on registration (Read 1596 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2020, 10:26:35 PM »
Sometimes people are served when they are not at home and in that case the person doesn't have to turn them in right away but within a certain time frame. So if someone is served at work or at court then they have x amount of days to turn the guns into police, or possibly sell/transfer them.  I went shooting with a guy who got a few firearms from his friend because of a TRO or abuse arrest. Can't remember the details but somehow the guy was able to transfer the firearms to his friend. This was about 17 years ago though.

I believe the law allows transferring but I can't recall the specifics on to who or how. They might have to be seized first and then ownership is transferred. At least if the wife is already on title then she shouldn't have to go through permitting process to get them back from HPD.

HPD will still require permits and wait period.  Their mandate is to require a background check for all transfers.  They see returning your property to you as a transfer.

If having your name on the registration avoided having to apply for new permits, then every other person who had their gun taken and returned was forced to do it wrong.
Wars never determine who is right.  They determine who is left.

changemyoil66

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2020, 12:01:10 AM »
Sometimes people are served when they are not at home and in that case the person doesn't have to turn them in right away but within a certain time frame. So if someone is served at work or at court then they have x amount of days to turn the guns into police, or possibly sell/transfer them.  I went shooting with a guy who got a few firearms from his friend because of a TRO or abuse arrest. Can't remember the details but somehow the guy was able to transfer the firearms to his friend. This was about 17 years ago though.

I believe the law allows transferring but I can't recall the specifics on to who or how. They might have to be seized first and then ownership is transferred. At least if the wife is already on title then she shouldn't have to go through permitting process to get them back from HPD.
Didnt they say red flags will be carried out by ssd. So odds are the person will be home and sleeping.

Since 2 names are on title, there is no need to transfer ownership. Just need to remove 1 name. Hence the napkin that states ownership is given up. Can't confiscate what you dont own. Remember, hpd doesnt  unregister firearms either.

"This is not my firearm or ammo. Its my wifes".

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spicynoodle_1

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2020, 06:28:18 AM »
Having both, you and spouse, on any registration or title is good in the sense that if something happens to one or the other, whether it be legally or through death, the property, no matter what it is, be it a car, house, or in this case, a firearm, will not be confiscated. It just becomes in the custody of the other legal owner, who is the remaining spouse. No hassle, understood that the person can legally own said property.

Now, the other side of the spectrum, if you want to depart from the partnership, taking the property to have sole custody may prove to be harder situation, as the gold digging whore spouse might want to cash in. This is hypothetically speaking, btw...

All this might have been said earlier in the thread, but I'm too lazy to go back and read...  :shaka:

6716J

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2020, 07:20:43 AM »
Didnt they say red flags will be carried out by ssd. So odds are the person will be home and sleeping.

Since 2 names are on title, there is no need to transfer ownership. Just need to remove 1 name. Hence the napkin that states ownership is given up. Can't confiscate what you dont own. Remember, hpd doesnt  unregister firearms either.

"This is not my firearm or ammo. Its my wifes".

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Yes sir, we know. But its that you have access to it, so we will need to take it all anyways. Here's the evidence form you need to recover them at some later date. Sign hard, it's 3 copies.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Rocky

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2020, 08:28:35 AM »
Get the book Kiddies

       §134-7  Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty.  (a)  No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
     (b)  No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
  (f) No person who has been restrained pursuant to an order of any court, including an ex parte order as provided in this subsection, from contacting, threatening, or physically abusing any person, shall possess, control, or transfer ownership of any firearm or ammunition therefor, so long as the protective order, restraining order, (TRO) or any extension is in effect, unless the order, for good cause shown, specifically permits the possession of a firearm and ammunition.  The restraining order or order of protection shall specifically include a statement that possession, control, or transfer of ownership of a firearm or ammunition by the person named in the order is prohibited.[/size]  Such person shall relinquish possession and control of any firearm and ammunition owned by that person to the police department of the appropriate county for safekeeping for the duration of the order or extension thereof.  In the case of an ex parte order, the affidavit or statement under oath that forms the basis for the order shall contain a statement of the facts that support a finding that the person to be restrained owns, intends to obtain or to transfer ownership of, or possesses a firearm, and that the firearm may be used to threaten, injure, or abuse any person.  The ex parte order shall be effective upon service pursuant to section 586-6.  At the time of service of a restraining order involving firearms and ammunition issued by any court, the police officer may take custody of any and all firearms and ammunition in plain sight, those discovered pursuant to a consensual search, and those firearms surrendered by the person restrained.  If the person restrained is the registered owner of a firearm and knows the location of the firearm, but refuses to surrender the firearm or refuses to disclose the location of the firearm, the person restrained shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.  In any case, when a police officer is unable to locate the firearms and ammunition either registered under this chapter or known to the person granted protection by the court, the police officer shall apply to the court for a search warrant pursuant to chapter 803 for the limited purpose of seizing the firearm and ammunition.
  Good cause consideration may include but not be limited to the protection and safety of the person to whom a restraining order is granted.
     (g)  Any person disqualified from ownership, possession, control, or the right to transfer ownership of firearms and ammunition under this section shall surrender or dispose of all firearms and ammunition in compliance with section 134-7.3.
     (h)  Any person violating subsection (a) or (b) shall be guilty of a class C felony; provided that any felon violating subsection (b) shall be guilty of a class B felony.  Any person violating subsection (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g) shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
 
Case Notes
 
  Defendant police chief was entitled to qualified immunity from plaintiff firearm permit applicant's 42 U.S.C. §1983 claims for monetary damages for alleged violations of plaintiff's Second Amendment right to bear arms and Fourteenth Amendment procedural due process right because a reasonable official in defendant's circumstances would not have understood that defendant's conduct violated a right that was clearly established at the time of the denial of plaintiff's permit; this section, on which the denial was based, had not been invalidated by case or legislative action.  869 F. Supp. 2d 1203 (2012).
  Genuine issue of material fact existed regarding:  (1) whether plaintiff had been under counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon a drug or intoxicating liquor; and (2) whether plaintiff had been "medically documented to be no longer adversely affected" by drugs or intoxicating liquor.  As a result, plaintiff had not established a Second Amendment right to possess firearms. 976 F. Supp. 2d 1200 (2013).
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

changemyoil66

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2020, 09:15:28 AM »
So is removing 1 of 2 names a "transfer of ownership"?

6716J

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2020, 09:28:02 AM »
Get the book Kiddies

       §134-7  Ownership or possession prohibited, when; penalty.  (a)  No person who is a fugitive from justice or is a person prohibited from possessing firearms or ammunition under federal law shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
     (b)  No person who is under indictment for, or has waived indictment for, or has been bound over to the circuit court for, or has been convicted in this State or elsewhere of having committed a felony, or any crime of violence, or an illegal sale of any drug shall own, possess, or control any firearm or ammunition therefor.
  (f) No person who has been restrained pursuant to an order of any court, including an ex parte order as provided in this subsection, from contacting, threatening, or physically abusing any person, shall possess, control, or transfer ownership of any firearm or ammunition therefor, so long as the protective order, restraining order, (TRO) or any extension is in effect, unless the order, for good cause shown, specifically permits the possession of a firearm and ammunition.  The restraining order or order of protection shall specifically include a statement that possession, control, or transfer of ownership of a firearm or ammunition by the person named in the order is prohibited.[/u]  Such person shall relinquish possession and control of any firearm and ammunition owned by that person to the police department of the appropriate county for safekeeping for the duration of the order or extension thereof.  In the case of an ex parte order, the affidavit or statement under oath that forms the basis for the order shall contain a statement of the facts that support a finding that the person to be restrained owns, intends to obtain or to transfer ownership of, or possesses a firearm, and that the firearm may be used to threaten, injure, or abuse any person.  The ex parte order shall be effective upon service pursuant to section 586-6.  At the time of service of a restraining order involving firearms and ammunition issued by any court, the police officer may take custody of any and all firearms and ammunition in plain sight, those discovered pursuant to a consensual search, and those firearms surrendered by the person restrained.  If the person restrained is the registered owner of a firearm and knows the location of the firearm, but refuses to surrender the firearm or refuses to disclose the location of the firearm, the person restrained shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.  In any case, when a police officer is unable to locate the firearms and ammunition either registered under this chapter or known to the person granted protection by the court, the police officer shall apply to the court for a search warrant pursuant to chapter 803 for the limited purpose of seizing the firearm and ammunition.
  Good cause consideration may include but not be limited to the protection and safety of the person to whom a restraining order is granted.
     (g)  Any person disqualified from ownership, possession, control, or the right to transfer ownership of firearms and ammunition under this section shall surrender or dispose of all firearms and ammunition in compliance with section 134-7.3.
     (h)  Any person violating subsection (a) or (b) shall be guilty of a class C felony; provided that any felon violating subsection (b) shall be guilty of a class B felony.  Any person violating subsection (c), (d), (e), (f), or (g) shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
 
Case Notes
 
  Defendant police chief was entitled to qualified immunity from plaintiff firearm permit applicant's 42 U.S.C. §1983 claims for monetary damages for alleged violations of plaintiff's Second Amendment right to bear arms and Fourteenth Amendment procedural due process right because a reasonable official in defendant's circumstances would not have understood that defendant's conduct violated a right that was clearly established at the time of the denial of plaintiff's permit; this section, on which the denial was based, had not been invalidated by case or legislative action.  869 F. Supp. 2d 1203 (2012).
  Genuine issue of material fact existed regarding:  (1) whether plaintiff had been under counseling for addiction to, abuse of, or dependence upon a drug or intoxicating liquor; and (2) whether plaintiff had been "medically documented to be no longer adversely affected" by drugs or intoxicating liquor.  As a result, plaintiff had not established a Second Amendment right to possess firearms. 976 F. Supp. 2d 1200 (2013).

This still doesn't address joint registration. And in my Holiday Inn Express lawyering, wouldn't the seizure be unlawful as the police would now be seizing property legally belonging to another party NOT under the ex-parte order? It is NOT a transfer of ownership as the other registrant IS an owner. No different than a car title with both persons on the title. When you sell the car both must sign it or it's not valid
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Rocky

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2020, 11:38:15 AM »
This still doesn't address joint registration. And in my Holiday Inn Express lawyering, wouldn't the seizure be unlawful as the police would now be seizing property legally belonging to another party NOT under the ex-parte order? It is NOT a transfer of ownership as the other registrant IS an owner. No different than a car title with both persons on the title. When you sell the car both must sign it or it's not valid
My post was primarily in response to post via EEF regarding TRO and Transfers though I think this would also apply to Red Flag.
I should have quoted him, apologies. :oops:

     I've always wondered about seizure in a Joint Ownership as it would be violating the rights of another person.
Joint Ownership would not involve physical legal transfer of registration which is unauthorized as registration is already in hand of second party and relinquishing your "firearms or ammunition" as required does not include relinquishing your registration.
My guess is it would revolve around access to possession by now unauthorized person.
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

changemyoil66

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2020, 12:46:09 PM »

My guess is it would revolve around access to possession by now unauthorized person.

So I forgot the combo to the safe and there are locks on all ammo cans that only the wife has the key for.  Or I'm moving out of the home right this instant and no longer living here.  So I wouldn't have access.

drck1000

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2020, 12:56:42 PM »
My post was primarily in response to post via EEF regarding TRO and Transfers though I think this would also apply to Red Flag.
I should have quoted him, apologies. :oops:

SNIP
Why did ya do that for?  Glutton for frustration?   :rofl:

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2020, 04:37:12 PM »
So is removing 1 of 2 names a "transfer of ownership"?

No.  A transfer requires the NEW owner to apply for a permit.  if 2 people have their names on the registration (after both successfully obtained permits), and you remove one, you're not changing ownership to a new owner. 

Removing a name is easy.  Adding that person back again requires the same gun control two-step they did the first time (permit, background check & waiting period).

I gave the Cops a fit when I transferred a handgun to my daughter.  She then moved out of state.  Later, she sent me the pistol back since she decided to buy something different.

It took 3 Cops asking the exact same questions before the lightbulb finally went on. 

Since she wasn't required to unregister, they still showed her as the owner.  But, she wanted to transfer the gun back to me and needed to use an FFL for an out-of-state transfer.  The transfer to me was from OGC, NOT from my daughter.

Me -> her -> OGC -> me

All exactly as required, but HPD was confused that OGC was transferring a gun to me that they showed was owned by a resident (no FFL required in their minds).

It was as if they thought I was trying to pull a fast one, even though an FFL was in the loop.   :crazy:
Wars never determine who is right.  They determine who is left.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2020, 04:43:31 PM »
These discussions of "what if you get red flagged or a TRO and more than one owner exists?" is exactly why the laws are never written to address these specific cases.

The more specific they make the laws, the more loopholes people can find.  The broader the wording, the more latitude the Cops have to enforce it and let the prosecutors sort it out.  Giving the Cops too many "if-then-else" rules to memorize just confuses them and makes it more likely the arrest or confiscation won't happen until the Cops get clarification.

That's my read on it anyway.
Wars never determine who is right.  They determine who is left.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2020, 07:44:51 PM »
HPD will still require permits and wait period.  Their mandate is to require a background check for all transfers.  They see returning your property to you as a transfer.

If having your name on the registration avoided having to apply for new permits, then every other person who had their gun taken and returned was forced to do it wrong.

If the gun was taken from you because you cannot have it then yes, they do require new checks and to get the guns back but if you weren't the target I don't think they require this. I was talking to a guy who got his whole safe stolen with some guns. Cops were able to recover the safe and some of the guns and gave the guns right back to the guy without a permit.

As I understand it (and I could be wrong) when someone has their gun seized they have to go through the background check again to ensure that the person hadn't been convicted of some disqualifying offense in the meantime.

But of course what they can do and what they actually do are not always in sync and unless someone sues them they might not win the argument. I guess this is just something we will have to ask the firearms guys next time we are there.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2020, 07:46:44 PM »
Didnt they say red flags will be carried out by ssd. So odds are the person will be home and sleeping.

Since 2 names are on title, there is no need to transfer ownership. Just need to remove 1 name. Hence the napkin that states ownership is given up. Can't confiscate what you dont own. Remember, hpd doesnt  unregister firearms either.

"This is not my firearm or ammo. Its my wifes".

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

It isn't uncommon for a TRO (and I assume a red flag order will be the same) to be served on an individual at places other than their homes.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2020, 07:53:46 PM »
My post was primarily in response to post via EEF regarding TRO and Transfers though I think this would also apply to Red Flag.
I should have quoted him, apologies. :oops:

     I've always wondered about seizure in a Joint Ownership as it would be violating the rights of another person.
Joint Ownership would not involve physical legal transfer of registration which is unauthorized as registration is already in hand of second party and relinquishing your "firearms or ammunition" as required does not include relinquishing your registration.
My guess is it would revolve around access to possession by now unauthorized person.

As I read it, technically they can't stop the wife of a prohibited person from owning a firearm but of course this does raise obvious effectiveness issues. If the wife keeps the guns at home then the husband would likely still have easy access to them and it would all be basically meaningless. And on the other side of the coin, you can't take away the wife's rights because of the husband's actions. No easy answer there.

changemyoil66

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #35 on: January 29, 2020, 09:38:03 PM »
As I read it, technically they can't stop the wife of a prohibited person from owning a firearm but of course this does raise obvious effectiveness issues. If the wife keeps the guns at home then the husband would likely still have easy access to them and it would all be basically meaningless. And on the other side of the coin, you can't take away the wife's rights because of the husband's actions. No easy answer there.
Easy answer is to have due process.

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eyeeatingfish

Re: Putting wife on registration
« Reply #36 on: January 31, 2020, 01:30:57 PM »
Easy answer is to have due process.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

With all the due process in the world this would still be an issue. If your spouse is a convicted felon they cannot possess a firearm but that does not justify banning you from owning a firearm.