AR optic of choice (Read 4533 times)

spicynoodle_1

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #40 on: May 13, 2020, 06:32:54 PM »
All my rifles are set up for self/home defense situations. Besides the much added weight of LPVOs versus a RDS or holo, I feel I will not need them in a self defense situation. I wont be engaging any targets outside of 25yds, let alone needing 4, 6, or even 8x magnification. I have tried it, just dont like it. Just my humble opinion. In fact, I hope I will never need to use my firearms to have to defend my family and property. Because that would mean I'm in a shitty situation. 

aaronc5362

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #41 on: May 13, 2020, 07:46:48 PM »
Drck1000

Add: steiner t5xi
         Zeiss
         Nightforce nxs. Since you already mentioned atacr

Im suprised no one said acogs.

I have an acog and offset rmr currently (contemplating offset t1 or h2 so i can change battery without removing the damn sight.) This mounted on chf spikes upper, barrel is fn stamped. With a good ol quad rail , a2 fsb. Larue mbt 2 flat trigger. This will prob be my shtf rifle.

ren

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #42 on: May 13, 2020, 09:22:23 PM »
I like my simple ACOG TA31
I wouldn't hesitate to use my service rifle scope either a Vortex PST 1-4x. Clicks are repeatable.

drck1000

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2020, 08:27:48 AM »
Indeed, the whole build has me to the point of paralysis currently with both the rifle and the optic.  Unfortunately, I don’t have a money is no object budget and will likely do a Gen II Razor or some type of red dot with a QD magnifier
I hear ya.  The price of the ATACR caused some paralysis for me.  I was initially looking in the 500-1000 ish price range.  Then got into the higher range.  Then the logic of well, if I'm spending 1000, 1500 is within range.  And so on. . . Once I had my mind set on the ATACR, it took me a bit to fully commit, as well as naively trying to find a sale on NF.  I was seriously close to going with the Gen II Razor, but sort of had my mind set and would've been wondering "what if" had I gone that route.  During that time, my gun funds went up, so that helped the decision to go with the ATACR.  Still wasn't a "money is no object" budget, but I didn't want the "what if" questions tainting my enjoyment of the ATACR.  And so far, I've been fully happy with it. 

Drck1000

Add: steiner t5xi
         Zeiss
         Nightforce nxs. Since you already mentioned atacr

Im suprised no one said acogs.

I have an acog and offset rmr currently (contemplating offset t1 or h2 so i can change battery without removing the damn sight.) This mounted on chf spikes upper, barrel is fn stamped. With a good ol quad rail , a2 fsb. Larue mbt 2 flat trigger. This will prob be my shtf rifle.
I've shot Zeiss on bolt guns.  Very nice glass.  I don't recall seeing them having 1-6 or 1-8x.  A shooting buddy had lots of good things to say about his Steiner 1-4.  He was on this board, but had PCS'ed away prior to me venturing into LPVOs.  I was very interested, especially for the price range (could find on sale in the 400-500ish range), but I wanted more than the 4x. 

The NF NXS actually was the scope that expanded my budget range from the initial 500-1000.  Then once I got into research about the NXS, got drawn to the ATACR and eventually sold on it.  The more forgiving eyebox of the ATACR was one of the major deciding points. 

drck1000

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #44 on: May 14, 2020, 08:34:35 AM »
All my rifles are set up for self/home defense situations. Besides the much added weight of LPVOs versus a RDS or holo, I feel I will not need them in a self defense situation. I wont be engaging any targets outside of 25yds, let alone needing 4, 6, or even 8x magnification. I have tried it, just dont like it. Just my humble opinion. In fact, I hope I will never need to use my firearms to have to defend my family and property. Because that would mean I'm in a shitty situation.
For a defensive carbine, I agree.  I wouldn't envision needing to shoot in defense out beyond 50 yards, even less for 100 yards.  Not to say that I wouldn't envision a scenario, just not realistic in my mind.  That said, I was interested in the capabilities of the platform in general (both rifle and higher quality ammo), which was a big consideration for me venturing into the LPVO. 

Totally hear ya on the personal preference.  That's huge.  I am very much one who has to try for myself to see for myself.  Yeah, use of a firearm generally means I'm in a "shitty situation".  Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

For me and my old eyes I'm contemplating between the primary arms GLX 2x or the Swampfox blade. Need something with an adjustable diopter...also fan of the ACSS reticle so kinda leaning more towards the PA GLX....not too sure about the Blades BRC and worried it may throw me off in a CQB situation. The rest of my ARs have a LPVO of various makes and power
For old(er) eyes, I've been told red dots really help over magnified scopes due to ease of picking up the dot over a crosshair style reticle.  I've been feeling the effects of aging eyes recently, but mostly with handgun shooting and the front sight.  At least for defensive situations where speed is at a premium over uber precision like say for a precision rifle. 

robtmc

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #45 on: May 14, 2020, 10:35:17 AM »
Eveything will have some sort of parallax. Anything that goes through lenses, especially curved/angled lenses and thick lenses.
As I wrote:  I got tighter groups with iron sights than the Sightmark.  And, I really, really tried to use the same cheekweld each shot to minimize head movement exaggerating parallax.

Though, I was under the impression red dots were intended for fast acquisition and shooting, but parallax of any amount will degrade that ability.  Only tube type red dot I ever tried was a Primary Arms M4 clone.  Never got to shoot it much before the windage stopped working.  The size of the thing gave me the impression an illuminated reticle LPVO would be just as easy and no less an encumbrance sitting up there..

That particular red dot worked to hit the target, just very far from a precision device when aperture sights produce tighter groups.  It sits in a cabinet now.

I did temprarily attach it to an 2240 air pistol to see what the red dot on a handgun was all about.   It worked, but was a bitch to convert my aiming from years of open sights.  Too large, of course.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 10:51:11 AM by robtmc »

aaronc5362

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #46 on: May 14, 2020, 12:57:06 PM »
I guess you could say parallax will degrade your precision at shooting a target.   But at 50 yards or in (even 100 and in) , id say yes, even with the worse parallax it would be faster than irons, as you dont have to line up 2 things (rear aperature, front post). 

Also if were in a weird ass position, firing on your side under a car, or something, and you cannot get a good cheek weld to line up your front and rear sight, what would you do vs having a red dot and maybe 1 or 2 inches from your poa to poi? No hostages in that scenario. LOL. I believe all optics were made so youd only have 1 point of AIM/ reference to shoot (put the dot, crosshair what have you) on your target.  Sure there may be minimal shift from poa to poi. Better than nothing DEPENDING on the situation at hand.

Dont quote me on this, (i saw this on a video where someone tested parallax with eotech, holosuns, t1 etc.) I mean he tested like 10-20 different red dots. Anyways, with aimpoints i think the parallqx only affected less rhan 2 inches at 100 yards. Thats sort of minute for a man sized target. And that was with live fire. I cant speak for the PA m4 clone tho. I was just researching holosuns at the moment.

Everyone is different, maybe you can shoot faster/ very well with peep sights, aperatures. But i cannot compared to a red dot.

By no means, im saying the miltary is the gold standard, but if you just google or youtube and spec ops training, from breaching to sniper training , anything except basic training, everyone will run some sort of optic. Even 3 gun, when i watch, everyone has an optic. Lpvo for long range, offset rds. The transition to a rds is faster than turning down the zoom. (I think miculek says that too) Even law enforcement in the mainland are running rds on pistols. Not all departments, just some. My friend is and he lives in the middle of nowhere georgia. Its faster i think?


Lpvos are great, dont get me wrong, i have 1 accupower.  In fact i went through 3.and a p4xi and a leupy VXR's 1.25-4 german 4, and circle fire dot. I do not like the mere size of it. I would choose a 1lbs acog over a .5oz 1-4. (Major exaggeration, but kinda hard to explain for my preference) i kept getting them and selling them. Kept on takin losses over an over again.. So i said fuck it already, im not going to sell my last 1. Cause i know ill get another 1 again. So i made a special ar15 just for that scope. Hardly shot it tho.

Honestly speaking, if i had time to aim and take my time on that trigger. 100 yards or more, id take a scope indefinitely. If i was in iraq id take my acog and offset red dot. But i dont wanna run anymore so you will never find me there lol


Edit: maybe im just trying to say speed is sometimes more of a factor than a super precise shot. I can put holes on the bullseye with red dots at 100 yards if i take my time. My co workers and friends can back me up on that as they were spotting for me.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2020, 01:57:48 PM by aaronc5362 »

robtmc

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #47 on: May 14, 2020, 07:59:20 PM »
Mebbe it is like automatic transmissions vs. manuals.

aaronc5362

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #48 on: May 14, 2020, 08:17:59 PM »
Haha sorta. Some just works better for others.

I can drive both tho. My friend taught me to shift without a clutch.

Fwiw ive tried rds on a glock. I cant get the hang of it. Alrhough ive tried less than 150 rounds or so. Ill stick to irons for pistols 🙃👍

mangosteenqueen

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2020, 10:05:34 PM »
The holosun 503 is really great bang for the buck. Probably the cheapest red dot I would ever recommend for heavy use. Ended up selling it to a friend who needed a new red dot and got myself a eotech xps2 and a couple aimpoints for cheap.

Recently I acquired a Wolf PSU 1x/4x which uses the same or similar concept as the elcan spectre DR. I like it. It has great glass, rangefinder reticle, really wide field of view (about 2ft shy of a acog ta31) and it holds the same point of impact between 1x and 4x.
However an optic never passes without a few design flaws but I’m glad I only paid for a fraction of the retail value. It’s not focus adjustable, reticle seems intentionally not daylight bright, and the overall construction feels as crude as a Russian.

I’m looking to get a 20” fsb upper but I’m debating on optics in these interesting times.

spicynoodle_1

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2020, 05:50:38 PM »
Recently I acquired a Wolf PSU 1x/4x which uses the same or similar concept as the elcan spectre DR. I like it. It has great glass, rangefinder reticle, really wide field of view (about 2ft shy of a acog ta31) and it holds the same point of impact between 1x and 4x.

Point of impact shouldn't change with magnification with any scope... I guess quality of the scope would play a factor, but it should stay the same..

The holosun 503 is really great bang for the buck.

+1 on holosun...

mangosteenqueen

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2020, 06:08:28 PM »
Point of impact shouldn't change with magnification with any scope... I guess quality of the scope would play a factor, but it should stay the same..

+1 on holosun...

The Wolf PSU is known to have POA/POI issues between shooting 1x and 4x. Sometimes there are reports of the elcan doing that too. I was lucky enough to dind a unit that didn’t have that problem.  LPVOs and variable optics are not as complex by design.

drck1000

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #52 on: May 18, 2020, 10:07:43 AM »
While precision shooting isn't something that immediately comes to mind when it comes to red dots, there are methods to help that.  Distance to target and dot size are big factors.  Some red dots are in the 4-8 MOA range and that's pretty big at 100 yards.  4 MOA is the largest dot I have.  When I am trying for more precision, I dial the dot as far down as I can and then use the top edge of the dot as the aiming point.  I've been able to get pretty decent groups doing that.  The EoTech reticle is clearer to me and 1 MOA.  The 2 MOA Aimpoint dots bloom a bit for me, but no too bad. 

Overall, red dots (at least for me) is essential for a defensive carbine for ease of use (put the dot on the target), speed of use, and forgiving of head position or even no cheekweld.  I've done some testing of parallax, but that's at 50 and 100 yards, and that was mostly a "see for myself" exercise.  At "in your face" to 25 yards, or even 50 yards, parallax hasn't been a real consideration for hitting a 12" x 16" target area.

Regarding changing POI at different magnification, I've seen it a couple of times.  One was on a buddy's Trijicon 1-4x and it was during a carbine class.  1x was fine, but then POI would change when going to 4x.  Luckily the 1x was fine and was able to get through the course fine, but there were exercises that would've been good experience to try/test out the 4x. 

spicynoodle_1

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #53 on: May 18, 2020, 10:31:51 AM »
How off was the POI?  And at what distance was he shooting?  I assume that he was shooting at farther distances when using 4x mag than when he was using 1x.

drck1000

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #54 on: May 18, 2020, 10:45:14 AM »
How off was the POI?  And at what distance was he shooting?  I assume that he was shooting at farther distances when using 4x mag than when he was using 1x.
For my buddy, I think it was maybe 3-4" off at 100 yards.  I don't remember exactly since this was maybe 8 years ago now.  We had just finished zeroing and were shooting at 50, 100, and 200 to confirm, as well as to note the POI changes for the various distances for the particular zero.  I think that's when he noticed the shift in POI from 1x to 4x.  He ended up sending back to Trijicon, but I don't remember what was the issue.  But when he got it back, it was fine. 

mangosteenqueen

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2020, 10:53:29 AM »
That’s interesting, LPVOs are the rage these days and rarely anyone talks about a shift when going from 1x to 4x unlike the elcan specter DR system which is prone to shifting.
Was he zeroed for 50/200 or 100 yards? And if you can remember, which direction did it shift?  If he was zeroed for 50 yards then that would make sense for where the POI arc would be for a 100 yard target, assuming it was simply just hitting a little high.

I personally would like to see more 1x prism optics. The 1moa dot on the eotech is really crisp when shooting out to 300 yards but you have to fiddle with the brightness setting. Not to mention relying on batteries. It also just seems clearer to look through a prism sight like the primary arms 1x cyclops than a red dot/holosight.

drck1000

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2020, 11:11:30 AM »
That’s interesting, LPVOs are the rage these days and rarely anyone talks about a shift when going from 1x to 4x unlike the elcan specter DR system which is prone to shifting.
Was he zeroed for 50/200 or 100 yards? And if you can remember, which direction did it shift?  If he was zeroed for 50 yards then that would make sense for where the POI arc would be for a 100 yard target, assuming it was simply just hitting a little high.

I personally would like to see more 1x prism optics. The 1moa dot on the eotech is really crisp when shooting out to 300 yards but you have to fiddle with the brightness setting. Not to mention relying on batteries. It also just seems clearer to look through a prism sight like the primary arms 1x cyclops than a red dot/holosight.
I don't remember which direction it shifted. 

I think his gun was zeroed for 50, but not sure.  The POI shift wasn't due to distance.  After confirming zero, we started shooting 50, 100, 200, etc to illustrate the trajectory "spread" of that zero across the varying distances.  This was a carbine 1 class so some of the shooters needed a little bit more time when we shot at 50 and 100, so that's when my buddy decided to try shooting one group at 1x and another at 4x.  That's where he started noticing the difference.  I ended up shooting his gun at 100 yards as an independent test and noticed the shift as well. 

stangzilla

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2020, 11:55:54 AM »
got the Holosun 510c over the weekend. been looking through it around the house.  it has a sizeable picture window, but the whole sight isn't that big at all, its easy to use, so I like it so far.
just need the darn range to open so I can test it out

spicynoodle_1

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #58 on: May 19, 2020, 12:05:55 PM »
A buddy of mine has that Holosun. I like it. That the one with the 65 MOA circle, right? I like that reticle...

mangosteenqueen

Re: AR optic of choice
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2020, 02:09:39 PM »
The circle dot reticle is great on the holosun. I had the solar/battery model 503C but if I were to do it again I would probably buy the one that runs only on battery. The solar and the auto brightness feature was neat but it had the hereditary problems self illuminated optics have for dynamic/low light lighting conditions as well as the little screwdriver and tray to fit the 2032 battery.