Here is the issue for voting for 3rd party like Jo.  She is super pro 2A and even wants to disband the ATF.  So She's my pick too.  But she stands no chance against Trump or Biden. So a vote for her is really a waste.

So every vote for Jo/3rd party is 1 less for Trump.  Even though we know all our delegates will cast their vote for Biden, we need to send a message that the days of HI being run by the DNC are starting to turn.  So every vote for Trump matters for the greater good of our state.  I still think Biden will get the majority vote though.  In 2016; 62% voted for Clinton. 30% for Trump. 8% were between Johnson, Stein, and Castle.  If we could swing those to Trump, he would have had 38%.  And this year, I'm seeing more and more trump supporters.  So I'm sure he will get more than 30% this year.

This is my fear

I really want to vote 3rd party, but I am afraid its useless.

This is my fear

I really want to vote 3rd party, but I am afraid its useless.

Sometimes it is a good idea, but in this case we have multiple active coup attempts by intelligence agencies and the only thing that will settle it is a total blowout for Trump with a supermajority in the house and senate. That will be a clear statement that Americans demand meaningful change.

Sometimes it is a good idea, but in this case we have multiple active coup attempts by intelligence agencies and the only thing that will settle it is a total blowout for Trump with a supermajority in the house and senate. That will be a clear statement that Americans demand meaningful change.

Unless there's a YouTube video of meetings between Comey, Brennan, Obama, Lynch, Biden and Clinton, all conspiring to create phony evidence so they can get FISA warrants and spy on the Trump team, certin people will refuse to believe the truth.  It's just a conspiracy theory if you don't have direct proof.  Never mind that even Comey, as well as 2 others, said they would not have signed the FISA warrants knowing what they now know (euphemism for "now that I  can't hide the truth any longer).

This is my fear

I really want to vote 3rd party, but I am afraid its useless.

It is useless.

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I am thinking of voting 3rd party, its very tempting but I know it accomplishes nothing so I am torn...

To me, voting 3rd party helps to give 3rd party candidates more recognition.

Being in Hawaii you know Trump isn't going to win and definitely 3rd party is not going to win. So go ahead and vote 3rd party, unless you want Biden to have a stronger showing.  3rd parties are never going to have a chance as long as people drink the kool-aid that 3rd party can never win. Gotta actually vote for them so we can see them getting higher vote percentages.

To me, voting 3rd party helps to give 3rd party candidates more recognition.

Being in Hawaii you know Trump isn't going to win and definitely 3rd party is not going to win. So go ahead and vote 3rd party, unless you want Biden to have a stronger showing.  3rd parties are never going to have a chance as long as people drink the kool-aid that 3rd party can never win. Gotta actually vote for them so we can see them getting higher vote percentages.

This exactly if we break that mindset we might have a independent or 3rd party president like good ole George Washington. 

This exactly if we break that mindset we might have a independent or 3rd party president like good ole George Washington.

Historically, 3rd party candidates tend to appeal more to one party's voters versus the other.  They wind up reducing the votes for either the Dem or GOP candidate, giving the other party an easier win.

Ross Perot was the 3rd party candidate with the greatest chance of winning.  What happened is he and HW Busk split the Republican vote and likely garnered a lot of independent voters.  Clinton won without getting a plurality of the votes.  Had Perot not entered the race, Bush may have defeated Clinton, and history would likely have taken a significantly different path.

Perot grabbed up almost 19% of the votes, or almost 20M.  While he didn't win a single state, his votes combined with Bush's 39M (59M total) would have been far above Clinton's almost 45M.  I don't have the breakout by state, but I imagine that big a difference would have given Bush the electoral win.  Instead, Clinton took 370 electorals to Bush's 168.

Perot was called the spoiler in that race.  Of course, there's no way to tell what % of Perot voters might have voted for Clinton, or not even voted at all.  I believe there was a record turnout, mostly because Perot lit a fire under the people who really wanted someone in the Oval office with real business experience and who was less of the same old politician from the two main parties.

Historically, 3rd party candidates tend to appeal more to one party's voters versus the other.  They wind up reducing the votes for either the Dem or GOP candidate, giving the other party an easier win.

Ross Perot was the 3rd party candidate with the greatest chance of winning.  What happened is he and HW Busk split the Republican vote and likely garnered a lot of independent voters.  Clinton won without getting a plurality of the votes.  Had Perot not entered the race, Bush may have defeated Clinton, and history would likely have taken a significantly different path.

Perot grabbed up almost 19% of the votes, or almost 20M.  While he didn't win a single state, his votes combined with Bush's 39M (59M total) would have been far above Clinton's almost 45M.  I don't have the breakout by state, but I imagine that big a difference would have given Bush the electoral win.  Instead, Clinton took 370 electorals to Bush's 168.

Perot was called the spoiler in that race.  Of course, there's no way to tell what % of Perot voters might have voted for Clinton, or not even voted at all.  I believe there was a record turnout, mostly because Perot lit a fire under the people who really wanted someone in the Oval office with real business experience and who was less of the same old politician from the two main parties.

One way to "fix" the situation that I can think of would be to be like the mayor race.  There are no parties.  People vote for the person.  Ideally the leader of the nation shouldn't have a vested interest in only half the population.

One way to "fix" the situation that I can think of would be to be like the mayor race.  There are no parties.  People vote for the person.  Ideally the leader of the nation shouldn't have a vested interest in only half the population.

The Constitution guarantees the right of association:

The freedom of association — unlike the rights of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition —
is a right not listed in the First Amendment but recognized by the courts as a fundamental right.   

There are two types of freedom of association: the right to expressive association and the right to
intimate association.

The right to expressive association refers to the right of people to associate together for expressive
purposes – often for political purposes.

Elections are the domain of the states.  Each of the 50 states decides upon their own set of rules
as long as they conform to the few requirements in the US Constitution.

Convincing 50 states to adopt a party-less system of voting is not going to happen.

Like the song says, "You gotta fight for your right to PARTY!"   

The Constitution guarantees the right of association:

Elections are the domain of the states.  Each of the 50 states decides upon their own set of rules
as long as they conform to the few requirements in the US Constitution.

Convincing 50 states to adopt a party-less system of voting is not going to happen.

Like the song says, "You gotta fight for your right to PARTY!"   

I guess the only way to implement change the easiest is to make more than the current 2 party system.  3rd, 4th, 5th party.  More the merrier.  I am doing my part, voted libertarian this year.  I will no longer bind myself to the 2 party system.

I guess the only way to implement change the easiest is to make more than the current 2 party system.  3rd, 4th, 5th party.  More the merrier.  I am doing my part, voted libertarian this year.  I will no longer bind myself to the 2 party system.

You really think if a 3rd party is routinely getting less than 10% of the votes, that somehow creates a ripple effect?

You're so special.   

Your "protest" vote doesn't matter at all.  You took a lunch hour to "think," forgot about months of bashing Trump and praising Biden, and you now have a morally superior position by changing to a 3rd party for almost 4 days now.

 

You really think if a 3rd party is routinely getting less than 10% of the votes, that somehow creates a ripple effect?

You're so special.   

Your "protest" vote doesn't matter at all.  You took a lunch hour to "think," forgot about months of bashing Trump and praising Biden, and you now have a morally superior position by changing to a 3rd party for almost 4 days now.

 

You took the lunch hour thing too literally.  I've been struggling what to do for the last 4 years.  Don't like trump, wont vote for him.  When presented Biden, I had to figure out what his opinions are.  Some I agree with some I don't but he wasn't a candidate I could fully support.  I still bash trump, I also praise the few things I think he does good.  And I will always praise some of Biden's views and bash the ones I don't agree with.  I am not a party drone like you.  Or maybe just a trump drone.  So what do I do?  Pick the least hated?  Or do I just pick the person I liked the most.  Ended up just making my mind up and voting 3rd party.  When you vote for the least negative you are already losing.  I wouldn't call it morally superior, you can believe whatever u want.  I think change begins with the few.  If I can be part of that I will do my best. 

Don't like trump, wont vote for him.

IDK if you posted this b4, what specifically do you not like about him.  Example, don't just say "he's racist". Provide examples of how he is racist?

Here is what I don't like about him:

1) Didn't do much for the 2a.  Passed a few XO's that are pro 2a, but didn't make a huge impact like national reciprocity would have. Allowed bump stocks without a fight to be ATF banned.  Now they banned the brace.  WH says they're looking into it.

2) He carries his cash in his back pocket in a clip.  A money clip goes in the front pocket, wallet in the back pocket.  Saw this on a video where he tipped the valet.  Super weird.  It wasn't 1 of those dual money clip/card holder either.  Fricken psycho.

You took the lunch hour thing too literally.  I've been struggling what to do for the last 4 years.  Don't like trump, wont vote for him.  When presented Biden, I had to figure out what his opinions are.  Some I agree with some I don't but he wasn't a candidate I could fully support.  I still bash trump, I also praise the few things I think he does good.  And I will always praise some of Biden's views and bash the ones I don't agree with.  I am not a party drone like you.  Or maybe just a trump drone.  So what do I do?  Pick the least hated?  Or do I just pick the person I liked the most.  Ended up just making my mind up and voting 3rd party.  When you vote for the least negative you are already losing.  I wouldn't call it morally superior, you can believe whatever u want.  I think change begins with the few.  If I can be part of that I will do my best.

Why do you feel the need to explain IN GREAT DETAIL your opinion?  Your thought process as to how you reached your epiphany, and how long it took, makes absolutely no difference to anyone.

I didn't take what you said literally.  You LITERALLY SAID: "Had a whole lunch hour to think.  I realize I am going to vote 3rd party."  in my entire life, I've never heard the phrase "Had a whole lunch hour to think." as a euphemism or slang expression for anything other than its literal interpretation.

 "You took the lunch hour thing too literally?"  If it was TOO literal, then to what degree was it NOT to be taken literally?   

IDK if you posted this b4, what specifically do you not like about him.  Example, don't just say "he's racist". Provide examples of how he is racist?

Here is what I don't like about him:

1) Didn't do much for the 2a.  Passed a few XO's that are pro 2a, but didn't make a huge impact like national reciprocity would have. Allowed bump stocks without a fight to be ATF banned.  Now they banned the brace.  WH says they're looking into it.

2) He carries his cash in his back pocket in a clip.  A money clip goes in the front pocket, wallet in the back pocket.  Saw this on a video where he tipped the valet.  Super weird.  It wasn't 1 of those dual money clip/card holder either.  Fricken psycho.

We've asked him many times to give specifics to explain his TDS.  So far, only vague misunderstandings and lies based solely on Liberal/Progressive talking points.

You're asking the impossible if you think he can do more than look up VOX articles on why Trump is bad.

IDK if you posted this b4, what specifically do you not like about him.  Example, don't just say "he's racist". Provide examples of how he is racist?

Here is what I don't like about him:

SNIP

2) He carries his cash in his back pocket in a clip.  A money clip goes in the front pocket, wallet in the back pocket.  Saw this on a video where he tipped the valet.  Super weird.  It wasn't 1 of those dual money clip/card holder either.  Fricken psycho.

That’s some high level scientific profiling right there.

What if someone has a money clip in front pocket and no wallet?  What about a murse? Haha

IDK if you posted this b4, what specifically do you not like about him.  Example, don't just say "he's racist". Provide examples of how he is racist?

Here is what I don't like about him:

1) Didn't do much for the 2a.  Passed a few XO's that are pro 2a, but didn't make a huge impact like national reciprocity would have. Allowed bump stocks without a fight to be ATF banned.  Now they banned the brace.  WH says they're looking into it.

2) He carries his cash in his back pocket in a clip.  A money clip goes in the front pocket, wallet in the back pocket.  Saw this on a video where he tipped the valet.  Super weird.  It wasn't 1 of those dual money clip/card holder either.  Fricken psycho.

I have posted before, but I'll just summarize. Don't really think he's racist.  He promised things and didn't deliver, exact your 1) point.  He is anti science.  Climate change denier.  Fucked up Covid response. Anti abortion.  Says the stupidest shit sometimes.  I love that he is open but have you seen some of his twitter posts?   He is dividing the country instead of trying to unify.  His love of Russia and dictators is disturbing.   Isn't doing enough against china.  Isn't leading the world.  There's literally a war popping up in Europe.

His decent immigration views and lukewarm 2a views do not erase all the bad.

Why do you feel the need to explain IN GREAT DETAIL your opinion?  Your thought process as to how you reached your epiphany, and how long it took, makes absolutely no difference to anyone.

I didn't take what you said literally.  You LITERALLY SAID: "Had a whole lunch hour to think.  I realize I am going to vote 3rd party."  in my entire life, I've never heard the phrase "Had a whole lunch hour to think." as a euphemism or slang expression for anything other than its literal interpretation.

 "You took the lunch hour thing too literally?"  If it was TOO literal, then to what degree was it NOT to be taken literally?   

You know you can make up your mind at any time?  Doesn't mean that you were not thinking about it before that...You can think about a decisions for years and make up your mind in seconds.

IDK if you posted this b4, what specifically do you not like about him.  Example, don't just say "he's racist". Provide examples of how he is racist?

Here is what I don't like about him:

1) Didn't do much for the 2a.  Passed a few XO's that are pro 2a, but didn't make a huge impact like national reciprocity would have. Allowed bump stocks without a fight to be ATF banned.  Now they banned the brace.  WH says they're looking into it.

2) He carries his cash in his back pocket in a clip.  A money clip goes in the front pocket, wallet in the back pocket.  Saw this on a video where he tipped the valet.  Super weird.  It wasn't 1 of those dual money clip/card holder either.  Fricken psycho.

Who says a money clip must be carried in the front pocket?

I don't carry my wallet in my front pocket, because the thing is too bulky.  Trump doesn't need to carry a bunch of ID, cards and so on.  I bet if you carried Trump's massive money clip, it would be too uncomfortable in your front pocket, too!   

Ever been golfing?  Front pockets are for tees, divot tools, ball markers, etc.  Probably got in the habit of keeping his money in a back pocket, since he didn't wear a suit jacket on the course.  Back when suits were the norm, men carried their wallets in their jacket pocket.

In the Air Force, we avoided anything in our front trouser pockets.  Keys, change, etc. would make noise and create a bulge, both of which were not part of proper uniform appearance.  Now that BDU/camo uniforms are the norm, it's not as much of a concern.  But I digress...

When you do something the same way for whatever reason it becomes habit.  Or as you put it, "Fricken psycho."

You know you can make up your mind at any time?  Doesn't mean that you were not thinking about it before that...You can think about a decisions for years and make up your mind in seconds.

Funny.  You didn't say anything about leaning toward 3rd party before this week, yet you say you've been thinking about it for [fill in arbitrary time period].

I find it hard to believe you kept the one little tidbit secret for so long, yet managed to spill your guts ad nauseam on this very subject nonstop.

Just stop.