Hmmm, animals deserve a level of freedom higher than random cells but lower than humans.  I would support minimal government intrusion.  A crime is committed but not as serious as a if it were human.

Animals are considered by the courts (especially pets) as "property."  Animals are not protected under the Constitution.  They therefore have no "freedoms" as protected by government.

On what do you base your opinion that laws should protect animals.  Since the Constitution doesn't apply, from where does the power come to pass laws making it a crime to torture your pet?

Tell me this,  with your religious views.  Is abortion ok in the circumstances of incest, rape?  What about if its physically or genetically deformed?   So far no one has answered me because they know they are all hypocrites. 

Each person will have to live with the choice they make.  Others choose to give up unplanned pregnancies for adoption to families that cannot have their own and want to raise a child.

There are families that choose to have their genetically deformed or down syndrome children anyway and love them as their own.  I have 2 sets of neighbors that have down syndrome children and I greatly respect them for raising and loving their children the way they do.  It doesn’t seem right to generalize all people and it would be unfair to call everyone hypocrites.

If its truly alive as you all say, then any abortion for any reason is murder. 

I would have to agree with you on this. 

The one exception i can think of is when there is a medical situation where one is either going to have to choose to save the mother or child.

Animals are considered by the courts (especially pets) as "property."  Animals are not protected under the Constitution.  They therefore have no "freedoms" as protected by government.

On what do you base your opinion that laws should protect animals.  Since the Constitution doesn't apply, from where does the power come to pass laws making it a crime to torture your pet?

States still have rights not all laws are the constitution.  Just happens that abortion and the right to privacy is.  And like you said torturing pets isn't in there either.   So that means its states rights.

Each person will have to live with the choice they make.  Others choose to give up unplanned pregnancies for adoption to families that cannot have their own and want to raise a child.

There are families that choose to have their genetically deformed or down syndrome children anyway and love them as their own.  I have 2 sets of neighbors that have down syndrome children and I greatly respect them for raising and loving their children the way they do.  It doesn’t seem right to generalize all people and it would be unfair to call everyone hypocrites.

I would have to agree with you on this. 

The one exception i can think of is when there is a medical situation where one is either going to have to choose to save the mother or child.

While I don't agree with your views.  I respect that you are constant.   I am only calling those hypocrites when they say abortion is murder yet there are circumstances (commonly used, incest and rape)  that magically don't make it.  It very much is true whatever choice they make they have to live with.  That's literally all I am supporting.  Peoples right to choose. 

I see your edit,  I have a question on that.  How do you weigh whos life is more "important" to save?

That question is a tough one... mother or child. That choice belongs to the mother and if she happened to be my wife, I would support whatever choice she makes, whether to save her life or save the child. 

If my wife was incapacitated and the choice was mine to make, I would always choose to save my wife.

The Supreme Court made a decision based on lies and a flimsy Constitutional redefining of privacy rights.  Doesn't make it a perfect, or even a good, decision.

Are you really this ignorant?

Oh, yeah ...... you are.

The doctor has no "privilege", whether or not the patient waives privacy rights.  The doctor has a DUTY to follow the law and protect the PATIENT'S right to privacy.

But, don't just take my word for it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician%E2%80%93patient_privilege

Just because a doctor may use the physician-patient rules of evidence to conceal unethical or criminal behavior doesn't make the privilege his. 

If the patient waives their privilege, then the doctor has no protection.  Hence, the doctor had no such privilege at all -- ever.

OK English Major.
Are semantics all you can really ever argue about and not substance ?
What if the patient doesn’t waive privilege does the doctor then have “duty” not “privilege “.

Talk about ignorant .... ( take Away your google......)  do you form original thoughts ..?

Shh don't tell flap.  He disagrees with that is a supreme court judge dont you know?

I think it was 5 Judges at least.

P.S.
Props to JL conversation as that’s kind of my thinking.

States still have rights not all laws are the constitution.  Just happens that abortion and the right to privacy is.  And like you said torturing pets isn't in there either.   So that means its states rights.

You did NOT answer the question.

You just reiterated what I said, and then implied what you THINK i was looking for.

We now agree that the Constitution does not apply to animals -- only to human beings.

Whether the Feds or the States make laws against torturing animals is irrelevant. 

What I asked is:

On what do you base your opinion that laws should protect animals? 

Those laws can be at any level of government.

Answer the question I asked, not the one you think I'm going to ask next.

OK English Major.
Are semantics all you can really ever argue about and not substance ?
What if the patient doesn’t waive privilege does the doctor then have “duty” not “privilege “.

Talk about ignorant .... ( take Away your google......)  do you form original thoughts ..?

I think it was 5 Judges at least.

P.S.
Props to JL conversation as that’s kind of my thinking.

Not semantics.  Just plain English.

The facts are the facts.  You stated them wrong -- doctors do not enjoy a physician-patient privilege.  Just like lawyers.  They, too, are bound by their DUTY under the law and professional ethics to keep client communications private.  The attorney-client PRIVILEGE belongs to the client.

If you refuse to accept that you were wrong, then at least you're consistent on both points:  being wrong and denying it.

Can you even use Google?  Read?  Understand English?

Look up the definitions yourself.  If your parents and teachers didn't see fit to educate you, I'm sure as hell not about to try.

I am only calling those hypocrites when they say abortion is murder yet there are circumstances (commonly used, incest and rape)  that magically don't make it.

Have you ever studied morality and ethics?  If not, it explains why you'd have a problem understanding them.

People who have seemingly conflicting views morally are usually following their ethics.

Morals dictate what you see as right or wrong.  Ethics is how you apply those morals in specific situations.  Using the example of murder, I believe it is morally wrong to take a life, but I never said it was ethically wrong under all circumstances.  If someone is threatening my life or the life of others, then I believe it's ethical to kill that person to prevent murder.

Same applies to abortion.  While killing a fetus for most reasons is immoral, the exceptions you listed make the decision ethical.

Nothing hypocritical about that at all.  Ignoring ethics while trying to trip someone up using moral arguments alone is a favorite tactic of many since too few seem to have an understanding of morals, ethics and their difference.

Have you ever studied morality and ethics?  If not, it explains why you'd have a problem understanding them.

People who have seemingly conflicting views morally are usually following their ethics.

Morals dictate what you see as right or wrong.  Ethics is how you apply those morals in specific situations.  Using the example of murder, I believe it is morally wrong to take a life, but I never said it was ethically wrong under all circumstances.  If someone is threatening my life or the life of others, then I believe it's ethical to kill that person to prevent murder.

Same applies to abortion.  While killing a fetus for most reasons is immoral, the exceptions you listed make the decision ethical.

Nothing hypocritical about that at all.  Ignoring ethics while trying to trip someone up using moral arguments alone is a favorite tactic of many since too few seem to have an understanding of morals, ethics and their difference.

It’s also easier to think one has the moral high ground and be uncompromising on those views when one hasn’t really lived life enough for experience to show otherwise. Especially true for those who have been living life fed by a golden spoon.

I dunno OG personally but he reminds me a lot of my buddies 18 yo son. So confident in himself because my buddies’ ex-wife’s family spoils him rotten and essentially having his way with everything. Life came so easy for him that he wasn’t able to see life through a different lens.

It’s also easier to think one has the moral high ground and be uncompromising on those views when one hasn’t really lived life enough for experience to show otherwise. Especially true for those who have been living life fed by a golden spoon.

I dunno OG personally but he reminds me a lot of my buddies 18 yo son. So confident in himself because my buddies’ ex-wife’s family spoils him rotten and essentially having his way with everything. Life came so easy for him that he wasn’t able to see life through a different lens.

I remember a million years ago when I was a young apprentice.  It was pau hana time and back then the general contractor would allow the construction trades to drink and eat pupu and just shoot the shit after work.

The subject on hand was about people who grew up with "silver spoons in their mouth".  Me in my young naive manner was being very vocal about my disdain for these type of people.

The superintendent lectured me cautioning me to not just pass these people off as snub nosed, entitled jerks because many times these people do not really know any better.  It took the sup a very long time to make me understand how a person cannot correct themselves if they don't think they are doing or behaving badly.

Since then I try to be more understanding but once in a while you meet some who are just.........

I remember a million years ago when I was a young apprentice.  It was pau hana time and back then the general contractor would allow the construction trades to drink and eat pupu and just shoot the shit after work.

The subject on hand was about people who grew up with "silver spoons in their mouth".  Me in my young naive manner was being very vocal about my disdain for these type of people.

The superintendent lectured me cautioning me to not just pass these people off as snub nosed, entitled jerks because many times these people do not really know any better.  It took the sup a very long time to make me understand how a person cannot correct themselves if they don't think they are doing or behaving badly.

Since then I try to be more understanding but once in a while you meet some who are just.........

No different than going to a friend's house for dinner, and the host's kids displaying table manners that would never be tolerated at your table.

The kids only knew what they had been taught.  if their table behavior was incorrect according to "official" etiquette rules, it's not their fault as much as it is their parents'.

However, once the kid is old enough to go to dinners alone, observe others as they follow the rules and can find where they, too, can learn the rules, it's up to the kid to make the effort to learn on their own.  There's nothing wrong with being ignorant.  There is something wrong with never being taught that it's their responsibility to continue learning over the course of their lives.

Graduating High School or College is not an indication that you've learned everything you'll ever need to know. 

I remember a million years ago when I was a young apprentice.  It was pau hana time and back then the general contractor would allow the construction trades to drink and eat pupu and just shoot the shit after work.

The subject on hand was about people who grew up with "silver spoons in their mouth".  Me in my young naive manner was being very vocal about my disdain for these type of people.

The superintendent lectured me cautioning me to not just pass these people off as snub nosed, entitled jerks because many times these people do not really know any better.  It took the sup a very long time to make me understand how a person cannot correct themselves if they don't think they are doing or behaving badly.

Since then I try to be more understanding but once in a while you meet some who are just.........

I said golden spoon because looking back, I grew up quite comfortable. I mean worked since I was 13 in a family business, but I pretty much had most things I wanted. I had to work for most of it, but I also had plenty of nice things. That said, I had plenty of “correction” from my parents and esp uncles growing up to put me in my place. I know they prob said similar things if me when I was growing up. While I don’t necessarily fault those who don’t know any better, I also don’t just tolerate it.

Same with my buddy’s son. When he was younger and would hang out with us, he would often get called out on the naive stuff he says. We mostly would just laugh it off as “one day he’ll learn”. Now that he’s older, there has been more than a few instances where he learned the hard way. His mother and her bf’s just want to be his friends and enable his entitled world views. Not necessarily a bad thing, but he also has burned bridges with his actions and attitude. He has since realized that and has started to try to mend things.

I said golden spoon because looking back, I grew up quite comfortable. I mean worked since I was 13 in a family business, but I pretty much had most things I wanted. I had to work for most of it, but I also had plenty of nice things. That said, I had plenty of “correction” from my parents and esp uncles growing up to put me in my place. I know they prob said similar things if me when I was growing up. While I don’t necessarily fault those who don’t know any better, I also don’t just tolerate it.

Same with my buddy’s son. When he was younger and would hang out with us, he would often get called out on the naive stuff he says. We mostly would just laugh it off as “one day he’ll learn”. Now that he’s older, there has been more than a few instances where he learned the hard way. His mother and her bf’s just want to be his friends and enable his entitled world views. Not necessarily a bad thing, but he also has burned bridges with his actions and attitude. He has since realized that and has started to try to mend things.

Military service is one of the best ways for young men and women to mature while having a safety net:  food, clothing, lodging, medical, dental, ..... and skills training.

It wasn't that long ago high school grads couldn't wait to move out of their parents' home and be independent.  Seems that norm has changed.  Even the gov't wants kids on their parents' healthcare insurance until age 26 if they are in school.  Eight years after HS, and still in school as a "child?"   

When I was 26, I was a college graduate serving in the USAF as a 1st LT and OIC (Officer in Charge) of our deployed unit in Saudi Arabia.  That was 1987.

Ask this spoon talk making me hungry even though I got food poisoning or something right now. Jk

Why does everyone think I had an ez life?  I'm a product of divorce and worked since 16....

Ask this spoon talk making me hungry even though I got food poisoning or something right now. Jk

Why does everyone think I had an ez life?  I'm a product of divorce and worked since 16....

I'm a "product" of divorce and worked since I was 8. 

How does either indicate an easy vs. hard life?

Graduating High School or College is not an indication that you've learned everything you'll ever need to know. 

Yabbut, an iFag and google can provide that.

Ask this spoon talk making me hungry even though I got food poisoning or something right now. Jk

Why does everyone think I had an ez life?  I'm a product of divorce and worked since 16....

“Had” and ez life? You old eh? Haha

“Product” of divorce?  That’s an interesting one. 😳🤣

“Had” and ez life? You old eh? Haha

“Product” of divorce?  That’s an interesting one. 😳🤣

He's still just a clump of cells....

Have you ever studied morality and ethics?  If not, it explains why you'd have a problem understanding them.

People who have seemingly conflicting views morally are usually following their ethics.

Morals dictate what you see as right or wrong.  Ethics is how you apply those morals in specific situations.  Using the example of murder, I believe it is morally wrong to take a life, but I never said it was ethically wrong under all circumstances.  If someone is threatening my life or the life of others, then I believe it's ethical to kill that person to prevent murder.

Same applies to abortion.  While killing a fetus for most reasons is immoral, the exceptions you listed make the decision ethical.

Nothing hypocritical about that at all.  Ignoring ethics while trying to trip someone up using moral arguments alone is a favorite tactic of many since too few seem to have an understanding of morals, ethics and their difference.

Did not study that.   Only had comp sci courses mostly.  Maybe my morals are lacking...then again I still don't view that clump of cells as alive.  So to me its not immoral.  To me even if you have a heartbeat unless you have consciousness you are not a formed human.