Poll

What is your stance on abortion?

Under no circumstances allowed
29.4%
Under rape/incest
23.5%
Under Medical or Genetic issues.
11.8%
Personal choice
29.4%
Forced
5.9%
Total Members Voted
17

Abortion (Read 5996 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #280 on: October 16, 2020, 10:14:08 PM »
You can't test for every birth defect, in particular mental retardation.

Careful. Pride is one of the "The Seven Deadly Sins."  Pride and arrogance go hand in hand.

Karma is real.  Just saying...
« Last Edit: October 16, 2020, 11:43:02 PM by Flapp_Jackson »
"That's what laws are for...  If the right people don't break 'em, they're of no use whatsoever.""

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #281 on: October 17, 2020, 06:14:23 AM »
You can't test for every birth defect, in particular mental retardation.

Careful. Pride is one of the "The Seven Deadly Sins."  Pride and arrogance go hand in hand.

Karma is real.  Just saying...

I know that's my greatest fear other than death.  Having kids is like playing the lotto. I don't got perfect genes.  And she doesn't.   And we just hope our combination turns out good.   I just want a happy successful kid that will make the world a better place.  Someone better than me.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #282 on: October 17, 2020, 11:41:47 AM »
I know that's my greatest fear other than death.  Having kids is like playing the lotto. I don't got perfect genes.  And she doesn't.   And we just hope our combination turns out good.   I just want a happy successful kid that will make the world a better place.  Someone better than me.

My greatest fear lately, more than COVID-19, is that you will procreate.

Just what we need:  OmniGun, Jr.

 :rofl: :geekdanc: O0


As for fear of death, that's an irrational fear.  You should make sure if you have dependents that they are taken care of via property and life insurance.  Beyond that, you should make sure your soul is prepared.  If you ever have to make the abortion decision, your choice could mean regrets versus a clear conscience.

Take care of what you can, and there will be no reason to fear death.  As my mother explained it, there are so many other things you CAN try to make sure don't happen.  Worry about the things you have some control over.  Death is something we can't stop -- it comes to us on its schedule. 

Why worry about something you have no control over?
"That's what laws are for...  If the right people don't break 'em, they're of no use whatsoever.""

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #283 on: October 17, 2020, 11:51:37 AM »
My greatest fear lately, more than COVID-19, is that you will procreate.

Just what we need:  OmniGun, Jr.

 :rofl: :geekdanc: O0


As for fear of death, that's an irrational fear.  You should make sure if you have dependents that they are taken care of via property and life insurance.  Beyond that, you should make sure your soul is prepared.  If you ever have to make the abortion decision, your choice could mean regrets versus a clear conscience.

Take care of what you can, and there will be no reason to fear death.  As my mother explained it, there are so many other things you CAN try to make sure don't happen.  Worry about the things you have some control over.  Death is something we can't stop -- it comes to us on its schedule. 

Why worry about something you have no control over?

As an agnostic I am unsure of the afterlife.  Fear of the unknown is common.  I don't have any dependents.  Don't think abortion would have any effect on my conscience, and I have never had one done for my sake.  One of the goals of my life is immortality just so I don't have to die, I enjoy life, why stop.  I am banking that during my lifetime medical tech advances to a point to cure aging. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #284 on: October 17, 2020, 11:56:27 AM »
As an agnostic I am unsure of the afterlife.  Fear of the unknown is common.  I don't have any dependents.  Don't think abortion would have any effect on my conscience, and I have never had one done for my sake.  One of the goals of my life is immortality just so I don't have to die, I enjoy life, why stop.  I am banking that during my lifetime medical tech advances to a point to cure aging.

And you deny living in fantasyland.

R-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-i-ight.......
"That's what laws are for...  If the right people don't break 'em, they're of no use whatsoever.""

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #285 on: October 17, 2020, 12:07:31 PM »
Science already knows what needs to be done to stop the aging process, but HOW remains a mystery.

Telomeres are stretches of DNA and proteins at the ends of our chromosomes. Each time a cell divides, these stretches naturally get shorter. Once telomere length reaches a particular cut-off point, the cell becomes senescent, meaning that it can no longer divide and will subsequently die.

Throughout our life, cells divide to replace and repair tissue: heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, skin, bones, etc.  When the cells stop dividing, tissue starts the aging process.  When the tissue can no long perform their biological functions, we experience failures of those organs.

If there were a way to extend the "countdown timers" (Telomeres), the cells in our bodies would never stop dividing. 

Immortality.

The side effects could include cellular damage that increases the number and severity of cancers.

So far, man can manipulate, imitate and facilitate life.  But, we cannot create life from raw materials.  Until we can, I think wishing for a treatment to stop us from aging will not be within our grasp.
"That's what laws are for...  If the right people don't break 'em, they're of no use whatsoever.""

drck1000

Re: Abortion
« Reply #286 on: October 17, 2020, 12:09:29 PM »
Elixir of Immortality  :thumbsup:

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #287 on: October 17, 2020, 12:23:51 PM »
Science already knows what needs to be done to stop the aging process, but HOW remains a mystery.

Telomeres are stretches of DNA and proteins at the ends of our chromosomes. Each time a cell divides, these stretches naturally get shorter. Once telomere length reaches a particular cut-off point, the cell becomes senescent, meaning that it can no longer divide and will subsequently die.

Throughout our life, cells divide to replace and repair tissue: heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, skin, bones, etc.  When the cells stop dividing, tissue starts the aging process.  When the tissue can no long perform their biological functions, we experience failures of those organs.

If there were a way to extend the "countdown timers" (Telomeres), the cells in our bodies would never stop dividing. 

Immortality.

The side effects could include cellular damage that increases the number and severity of cancers.

So far, man can manipulate, imitate and facilitate life.  But, we cannot create life from raw materials.  Until we can, I think wishing for a treatment to stop us from aging will not be within our grasp.

That is one way, another and more likely way is through robotics/3d printing/growing.  If we can replace our body or parts of our body we will never die. 

eyeeatingfish

Re: Abortion
« Reply #288 on: October 17, 2020, 12:39:55 PM »
The question is, is said transfusion being forced upon?  What if the person needing blood is a convicted rapist and was shot while raping a woman.  I would not freely sit there to donate my blood.  But then again, I am for capital punishment, so to each their own.

You are going a little too deep. The situation is just the closest analogy I have come up with to date to present to someone as another way to look at stopping or allowing abortion. I am trying to make a thought experiment separate from abortion that can get as close as possible to the abortion situation the help understand the dilema of forcing someone to remain pregnant vs allowing someone to take a life for their own freedom.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Abortion
« Reply #289 on: October 17, 2020, 12:42:06 PM »
Yeah, I think this analogy works.   Though since I don't believe its a person its more akin to just forcing people to donate blood.

True, the analogy rests on the premise that an unborn baby is a life. Some pro-choice people do believe the baby is a life and some don't.

drck1000

Re: Abortion
« Reply #290 on: October 17, 2020, 12:42:19 PM »
Hmmm not sure.  I would have that talk with her before we get to that point.   So I know we are on the same page.
Well, even if you discuss and agree, no guarantees. From experiences from a few friends who ended up divorced after getting married after “agreements”, things change. A couple of them were on agreements on kids or no kids, but then one changed their mind along the way.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Abortion
« Reply #291 on: October 17, 2020, 12:43:19 PM »
And if someone is performing a partial birth abortion, I would argue they, too, are committing a crime -- whether the law recognizes it as such or not.

Just because an act is lawful doesn't mean it's not a crime.

Crime --noun  "a grave offense especially against morality"

I was talking about from a legal standpoint but yes, you could certainly argue it as a crime from a moral standpoint as well.

Rocky

Re: Abortion
« Reply #292 on: October 17, 2020, 01:21:42 PM »
Never touched this thread till today so started at  it's "birth".
First of all, I would like to apologize to myself for wasting the time. :oops:

Quote from: omnigun on October 14, 2020, 12:31:04 PM
  "  in your 20's "
This explains so much.

Sentient
Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.
Subjectivity is a central philosophical concept, related to consciousness, agency, person hood, reality, and truth, which has been variously defined by sources.
   Something being a subject, narrowly meaning an individual who possesses conscious experiences, such as perspectives, feelings, beliefs, and desires.[1]
Cells react to stimulus, therefore "feel".

You know many people in their 20's living on oahu who own houses?  Dang that's one interesting social circle.   Yes you are not allowed to modify the house....its in most agreements.
Just don't pay your HECO bill and do your part to save the planet.

And to be fair so it does not appear that I'm  just picking on
a fetus is not the same as a boob job
But possession of one usually gives you the other.  :rofl:

So. again . . .
Don't ask why a clown acts like a clown, ask yourself why you keep going to the circus .  :closed:
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #293 on: October 17, 2020, 01:28:30 PM »
Never touched this thread till today so started at  it's "birth".
First of all, I would like to apologize to myself for wasting the time. :oops:

Quote from: omnigun on October 14, 2020, 12:31:04 PM
  "  in your 20's "
This explains so much.

Sentient
Sentience is the capacity to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively.
Subjectivity is a central philosophical concept, related to consciousness, agency, person hood, reality, and truth, which has been variously defined by sources.
   Something being a subject, narrowly meaning an individual who possesses conscious experiences, such as perspectives, feelings, beliefs, and desires.[1]
Cells react to stimulus, therefore "feel".
Just don't pay your HECO bill and do your part to save the planet.

And to be fair so it does not appear that I'm  just picking on But possession of one usually gives you the other.  :rofl:

So. again . . .
Don't ask why a clown acts like a clown, ask yourself why you keep going to the circus .  :closed:

Bugs "feel" stimulus but they are not people.  Sentience most important part to me is personhood.  Self awareness.  Its the only thing only humans have.  Robots don't, animals dont, etc. 

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #294 on: October 17, 2020, 02:27:45 PM »
Bugs "feel" stimulus but they are not people.  Sentience most important part to me is personhood.  Self awareness.  Its the only thing only humans have.  Robots don't, animals dont, etc.

We are not talking about bugs.

Bugs are not comprised of the same DNA as humans.

I suppose if the fetus weighed as much as a duck, you'd proclaim the fetus made of wood, and -- logically -- a WITCH!
"That's what laws are for...  If the right people don't break 'em, they're of no use whatsoever.""

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #295 on: October 17, 2020, 02:47:54 PM »
We are not talking about bugs.

Bugs are not comprised of the same DNA as humans.

I suppose if the fetus weighed as much as a duck, you'd proclaim the fetus made of wood, and -- logically -- a WITCH!

I was only reacting to the bolded feel and the fact he said cells feel.  Lots of cells "feel"  all animals feel but I was pointing out humans have unique abilities past that, that qualifies for  sentience.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #296 on: October 17, 2020, 02:52:41 PM »
I was only reacting to the bolded feel and the fact he said cells feel.  Lots of cells "feel"  all animals feel but I was pointing out humans have unique abilities past that, that qualifies for  sentience.

You avoided admitting his point -- that a HUMAN FETUS has FEELINGS even though  by your own words, it is not alive.

Stop trying to redirect the point to something you can argue against.  I understand your thought process.  It's no different than EEF's.  You try to disprove point after point with tangential and irrelevant rebuttals that do nothing but redirect the discussion down a confused and convoluted rabbit hole.
"That's what laws are for...  If the right people don't break 'em, they're of no use whatsoever.""

omnigun

Re: Abortion
« Reply #297 on: October 17, 2020, 02:57:13 PM »
You avoided admitting his point -- that a HUMAN FETUS has FEELINGS even though  by your own words, it is not alive.

Stop trying to redirect the point to something you can argue against.  I understand your thought process.  It's no different than EEF's.  You try to disprove point after point with tangential and irrelevant rebuttals that do nothing but redirect the discussion down a confused and convoluted rabbit hole.

If you poke a fetus with a stick maybe it moves.  If you poke a dog with a stick it maybe moves.  Are you saying a dog is sentient?  I've agreed with you a fetus is technically "alive".  But I said countless time in order to get humanhood/person hood it must have human sentience. It must be aware of self. 
You are doing the exact same thing you accuse me of doing. 

groveler

Re: Abortion
« Reply #298 on: October 17, 2020, 03:01:22 PM »
I had to read Dr. Peter Singer when I was at university.
I was also educated about how ancient peoples (BCE) left
unwanted babies out
for the animals to consume.
This problem is as old as humanity.
For a "modern" world we haven't learned shit!
Depriving a potential or actual person of life is the
failure of an ignorant and selfish people.
I repudiate you.
That is all.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Abortion
« Reply #299 on: October 17, 2020, 06:28:32 PM »
If you poke a fetus with a stick maybe it moves.  If you poke a dog with a stick it maybe moves.  Are you saying a dog is sentient?  I've agreed with you a fetus is technically "alive".  But I said countless time in order to get humanhood/person hood it must have human sentience. It must be aware of self. 
You are doing the exact same thing you accuse me of doing.

You're a moron, aren't you?  Not calling you names.  Just trying to isolate whether there is a name for whatever is wrong with you.

If the HUMAN fetus is ALIVE (as you just stipulated), and the fetus is the result of HUMAN DNA combinants, by definition it is a living, developing human being.

The absence of a test result showing it is sentient doesn't prove anything.  You can give a test for sentience to a sleeping person, and I bet they would not pass.

What's needed is a non-sentience test.  Doesn't exist.  Unless you can devise a test to prove it's not sentient, you can't prove the fetus is NOT sentient.  Therefore, we should err on the side of life -- that the fetus is alive and sentient (and will be sentient without a doubt at some stage of development).  Hence, the fetus must be granted protections under the Constitution -- that being the right to LIFE.
"That's what laws are for...  If the right people don't break 'em, they're of no use whatsoever.""