nope, no bias here either... (Read 7545 times)

omnigun

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2020, 06:19:17 AM »
I definitely question your intentions.

I'm just saying everything could be worse.  Don't throw water on the grease fire.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2020, 12:51:45 PM »
I'm just saying everything could be worse.  Don't throw water on the grease fire.

Your way of thinking is why nothing ever gets fixed in government.

Too afraid of the backlash from causing the problem to worsen to even try to fix it.  Just keep running on fixing it year after year.

The Big Tech companies ARE government agencies because they receive special subsidies (tax breaks) from the government.  i.e. TAXES we all pay.

Therefore, they should not be treated as private firms, but as public-private entities.  As such, we should get a say in how they are run through our representatives.

Really not complicated.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

omnigun

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2020, 01:47:11 PM »
Your way of thinking is why nothing ever gets fixed in government.

Too afraid of the backlash from causing the problem to worsen to even try to fix it.  Just keep running on fixing it year after year.

The Big Tech companies ARE government agencies because they receive special subsidies (tax breaks) from the government.  i.e. TAXES we all pay.

Therefore, they should not be treated as private firms, but as public-private entities.  As such, we should get a say in how they are run through our representatives.

Really not complicated.

Do you support ending subsides for big oil?   I think almost all subsidies should be canceled.  This is free market.  If you cant survive you fail.

ren

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2020, 01:55:26 PM »
Do you support ending subsides for big oil?   I think almost all subsidies should be canceled.  This is free market.  If you cant survive you fail.

would you give up your gasoline drinking vehicle?
Deeds Not Words

omnigun

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2020, 02:07:54 PM »

omnigun

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2020, 02:08:17 PM »
would you give up your gasoline drinking vehicle?

Yes,  I would love to go electric or take the rail.   Or pay more at the pump.    Charge more for gas, no subsidies is the best outcome.  I rather have less taxes and just pay more at the pump.  Then people will start to go electric or walk or stop buying huge SUV's.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2020, 02:12:18 PM »
Do you support ending subsides for big oil?   I think almost all subsidies should be canceled.  This is free market.  If you cant survive you fail.

Subsidies have a specific purpose.  There are qualifications that need to be met before creating the subsidies, and they need to be reevaluated every 3-5 years for potential repeal.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

omnigun

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2020, 02:14:24 PM »
Subsidies have a specific purpose.  There are qualifications that need to be met before creating the subsidies, and they need to be reevaluated every 3-5 years for potential repeal.

What purpose other than falsely keeping oil low and going against capitalism does subsidizing billion dollar oil companies do?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2020, 02:14:33 PM »
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/craigsilverman/facebook-cut-traffic-liberal-pages-before-election

Oh no facebook is against the liberals now....wait a second...

Yet, Zuckerberg couldn't name a single example of this happening last week.

Did he send a text to his managers and tell them to give him plausibility?  "Ban some Liberals! Quick!!"
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

omnigun

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2020, 02:15:17 PM »
Yet, Zuckerberg couldn't name a single example of this happening last week.

Did he send a text to his managers and tell them to give him plausibility?  "Ban some Liberals! Quick!!"

Ah if its not what you want, its a conspiracy! What an interesting world you live in.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2020, 02:15:50 PM »
What purpose other than falsely keeping oil low and going against capitalism does subsidizing billion dollar oil companies do?

This is not a big oil thread.  It's about big tech bias.

Focus.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

ren

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2020, 02:16:05 PM »
Yes,  I would love to go electric or take the rail.   Or pay more at the pump.    Charge more for gas, no subsidies is the best outcome.  I rather have less taxes and just pay more at the pump.  Then people will start to go electric or walk or stop buying huge SUV's.

You can go electric now. Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, Tesla. I asked about giving up your ICE vehicle not about paying more for it.
Deeds Not Words

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2020, 02:17:46 PM »
Ah if its not what you want, its a conspiracy! What an interesting world you live in.

Can't change the facts.  Were the Liberal posts anywhere as big as the Biden Laptop story from a major newspaper?

I doubt it.  If it was as big and involved Trump, every major news agency would  be screaming "BREAKING NEWS!!"
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

omnigun

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2020, 02:59:17 PM »
You can go electric now. Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, Tesla. I asked about giving up your ICE vehicle not about paying more for it.

My car is still working, my next car will be electric.  Tesla model 3 or cyber truck.

eyeeatingfish

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #34 on: November 05, 2020, 09:43:20 PM »
Your way of thinking is why nothing ever gets fixed in government.

The real question is whether you trust the government to start regulating internet forums. Remove section 230 and then let the government step in and start dictating how a platform must or can't moderate itself? Does 2ahawaii.com get its own government agent to make sure the mods aren't overstepping their mod powers? I don't think its that omni is thrilled about left leaning social media but trying to regulate this type of thing means more and bigger government.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #35 on: November 05, 2020, 09:58:52 PM »
The real question is whether you trust the government to start regulating internet forums. Remove section 230 and then let the government step in and start dictating how a platform must or can't moderate itself? Does 2ahawaii.com get its own government agent to make sure the mods aren't overstepping their mod powers? I don't think its that omni is thrilled about left leaning social media but trying to regulate this type of thing means more and bigger government.

That's not the real question when nobody is advocating government control over free speech, but rather getting government out of the business (literally) of subsidizing the largest tech companies in the nation -- possibly the world.

Removing section 230 is NOT an invitation to government control, but rather it puts the PUBLISHERS of public information on an even footing with most other businesses -- where they can be sued for the content they publish and censor when it's not handled properly according to existing liable, slander, and other applicable laws.

Had this protection not been in place, Nicholas Sandman could have sued Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. just like they did CNN, New York Times, Washington Post (I think I got that list right....don't quote me). 

Until information merchants are held to account for the damage they do to private citizens by allowing viral posts to travel the globe with no accountability for the content even after being provided evidence it's fake or a lie, they can do whatever they want, and we just have to live with it.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #36 on: November 05, 2020, 10:17:18 PM »
That's not the real question when nobody is advocating government control over free speech, but rather getting government out of the business (literally) of subsidizing the largest tech companies in the nation -- possibly the world.

Removing section 230 is NOT an invitation to government control, but rather it puts the PUBLISHERS of public information on an even footing with most other businesses -- where they can be sued for the content they publish and censor when it's not handled properly according to existing liable, slander, and other applicable laws.

Had this protection not been in place, Nicholas Sandman could have sued Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. just like they did CNN, New York Times, Washington Post (I think I got that list right....don't quote me). 

Until information merchants are held to account for the damage they do to private citizens by allowing viral posts to travel the globe with no accountability for the content even after being provided evidence it's fake or a lie, they can do whatever they want, and we just have to live with it.

How is the government subsidizing FB?

I realize that removing section 230 wouldn't mean the government comes in and starts regulating everything directly however it would mean government coming in and deciding who is a publisher vs a distributor vs a platform at an increasing rate. It is a tough line to do by itself and now politicians are going to put their hand into drawing that line. Republicans like or don't like the way a platform censors something then they draw the line? (and vice versa). What happens when democrats get in control though? Some moderator changes or deletes one of our posts and then democrats come in and say 2ahawaii is now a publisher and people try to silence pro-gun discussion.

If I speak libel about you here then you can sue me but you can't sue 2ahawaii for that. But is FB actually creating any of the libelous content? Is unfairly moderating grounds for becoming a publisher? And who decides what is fair or unfair moderating? It just isn't something I really trust that the government can do.

Why should Nicholas Sandman be allowed to sue Facebook for what happened? I get why he could sue CNN and the like but I see no justification for suing FB because loads of idiot users post ignorant stuff about him. He could sue specific users if he wanted however.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2020, 10:30:35 PM »
How is the government subsidizing FB?

I realize that removing section 230 wouldn't mean the government comes in and starts regulating everything directly however it would mean government coming in and deciding who is a publisher vs a distributor vs a platform at an increasing rate. It is a tough line to do by itself and now politicians are going to put their hand into drawing that line. Republicans like or don't like the way a platform censors something then they draw the line? (and vice versa). What happens when democrats get in control though? Some moderator changes or deletes one of our posts and then democrats come in and say 2ahawaii is now a publisher and people try to silence pro-gun discussion.

If I speak libel about you here then you can sue me but you can't sue 2ahawaii for that. But is FB actually creating any of the libelous content? Is unfairly moderating grounds for becoming a publisher? And who decides what is fair or unfair moderating? It just isn't something I really trust that the government can do.

Why should Nicholas Sandman be allowed to sue Facebook for what happened? I get why he could sue CNN and the like but I see no justification for suing FB because loads of idiot users post ignorant stuff about him. He could sue specific users if he wanted however.

Subsidized by tax breaks.  All part of them claiming to be a protected platform.

You're overthinking the issue, just like the big tech companies want you to.

The have it both ways:  they are a platform with tax breaks and special liability protections, AND they act as editors, censoring and blocking posts and accounts based on often NO VIOLATIONS of any policies -- just a "mistake" or "AI" or "Some rogue employee".

They have a million excuses why they keep messing up, but it's always in one direction -- against Conservatives and anything that makes Liberal/Democrats look bad.

Patterns, trends and continued behavior do not lie.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2020, 09:30:41 PM »
Subsidized by tax breaks.  All part of them claiming to be a protected platform.

By that logic nearly everyone then becomes a product of the government. I got a child tax credit, the government subsidized me.



Quote
You're overthinking the issue, just like the big tech companies want you to.

The have it both ways:  they are a platform with tax breaks and special liability protections, AND they act as editors, censoring and blocking posts and accounts based on often NO VIOLATIONS of any policies -- just a "mistake" or "AI" or "Some rogue employee".

They have a million excuses why they keep messing up, but it's always in one direction -- against Conservatives and anything that makes Liberal/Democrats look bad.

Patterns, trends and continued behavior do not lie.


With a company as big as FB there are likely to be many many different reasons why certain posts are blocked, edited, censored, etc. I am not saying the explanations are always honest, only that we can't discount them as impossible.

I am assuming that you are not taking the position that FB should be hands off and not moderate anything, so how do you draw the line legally speaking? What kind of test could the court make to evaluate whether a platform has become a publisher?

Flapp_Jackson

Re: nope, no bias here either...
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2020, 10:44:47 PM »
By that logic nearly everyone then becomes a product of the government. I got a child tax credit, the government subsidized me.

By your logic, you don't know the difference between corporate & business taxes vs. income tax.

Child tax credits are refunds that you don't have to qualify for, whether it's income or filing status, etc.  Look up how tax credits differ from deductions.  Credits are direct payment amounts.  Deductions reduce your tax liability by some calculated amount.  Same animal, different name and difficulty in obtaining.

In a similar example, let's say you bought a child safety car seat.  The gov't subsidized the child seat manufacturer's BUSINESS.  By giving YOU a tax credit, it reduces the price YOU paid, but the RETAILER and MANUFACTURER  still got full price -- the price you paid before the tax credit.  So who benefitted?  You got a car seat for say $25 less, and the corporations and businesses sold a car seat for the pre-tax-credit price.  Might as well say the tax credit went to the businesses, and they passed that price on to you. 

But wait!  What if that car seat would have been $125 without the credit program?  Now the businesses can charge $150, and then you get "a refund" of the overcharge to the normal retail price via a credit.  Now who benefitted?  Just the business, not you.

Do you believe there were no baby products manufacturers lobbying to have a tax credit for their product paid to consumers?  The more the gov't pays you (or doesn't make you pay) by simply making a purchase, the better that industry does whether or not they raise prices.  Just increasing demand helps their bottom line. 

Who do you think the mortgage interest deduction was designed to help more:  Home buyers, or the housing industry?

Quote
With a company as big as FB there are likely to be many many different reasons why certain posts are blocked, edited, censored, etc. I am not saying the explanations are always honest, only that we can't discount them as impossible.

There are plenty of whistleblowers who provided evidence that the bias is at corporate level.  All you have to do is believe what PEOPLE WHO SHOULD KNOW are telling us.  But, you prefer to believe Zuckerberg, who can't recall a single high-profile Liberal being censored the way the New York Post was.

Quote
I am assuming that you are not taking the position that FB should be hands off and not moderate anything, so how do you draw the line legally speaking? What kind of test could the court make to evaluate whether a platform has become a publisher?

Simple.  There are Terms of Service people agree to.  Use FB's massive resources to ensure no anonymous accounts are created.  Require proof of identity.  The IRS uses a credit report for verification to access tax info.  Would not be hard to do that.

Then enforce the policies consistently and without bias. 

The policies should be written to encourage cordial and non-abusive behavior and language.  Putting in policies to forbid misgendering and posting OPINIONS on political stories is wrong.  So what if I can't corroborate a given story?  If I want to base my opinion on it, it should not be banned as "potentially inaccurate."

Draw a line between format and content.  Control the format so everyone is treated equally and can be relatively civil, or users suffer the consequences.  But allow all the content as long as it doesn't cross the line of being criminal or against LIMITED ToS prohibitions: porn, graphic violence, etc.  I'd recommend they provide a separate forum for things that adults can opt into, such as footage of actual beheadings, etc.  If that's what people need/want, censoring doesn't stop it.  But, they can implement safeguards so minors don't have easy access and you can only share with others in that optional forum.

It takes some work, and exceptions will need to be handled as exceptions.  FB trying to make a one-size-fits-all bunch of filters is not working as intended.  Or, if it is, then it's just wrong.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw