USA does NOT sign the UN treaty (Read 7127 times)

Ifly808

ImKu

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2012, 01:49:56 PM »
From everything I've seen so far, it didn't pass. :thumbsup:
The mind acts like an enemy for those who do not control it.
- Bhagavad Gita

Cougar8045

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2012, 08:46:22 PM »
I looked and looked this morning after I saw CCRKBA's press release to see if I could find some corroboration.  I was cautiously optimistic, but I didn't want to start throwing babies in the air until I saw someone else reporting the same thing, and I finally got what I was after tonight on my facebook feed. 

NRA-ILA press release
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

rswarrior1700

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2012, 11:44:05 PM »
America Fuck Yeah !!!!

Kingkeoni

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2012, 08:11:19 AM »
I looked and looked this morning after I saw CCRKBA's press release to see if I could find some corroboration.  I was cautiously optimistic, but I didn't want to start throwing babies in the air until I saw someone else reporting the same thing, and I finally got what I was after tonight on my facebook feed. 

NRA-ILA press release

I got the same news feed in my email.

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SpeedTek

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Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2012, 08:15:08 AM »
Our politician actually did something right?
Political Correctness is FOS
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clshade

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2012, 09:05:01 AM »
If you think that backing off from a treaty that would have zero affect on gun ownership within the US and almost no affect on how the US does business in international arms sales is "right", then yes, they did something right.

If bowing to pressure from a completely misinformed panic on the part of gun owners about a fictional threat to the 2nd amendment is right, then yes, they did something right.

If backing off at the last minute from the treaty negotiations in which every single concern the US had was addressed and included in the treaty (no threat to the 2nd ammendment, treaty is not enforced, etc.) is right, then yes, our politicians did something right.

China and Russia backed off because they actually sell guns to bad guys and didn't want to be held more accountable for it. We backed off because a bunch of us wrongly thought the treaty would affect private gun ownership. Put that together: our political enemies are still selling weapons to our political enemies because US gun owners panicked about a treaty that had absolutely no affect on them.

Disagree? Seriously, please prove me wrong. http://iapcar.org/?p=970 Tell me where this treaty was going to be the death knell for the 2nd amendment. Show me where this would have affected gun rights in the US at all.

Funtimes

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2012, 11:01:31 AM »
We sell to many guns to other people for some shit like this to happen :).
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nf9648

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2012, 05:52:09 PM »
If people worldwide could not get small arms, we wouldnt have anyone to fight.  That would make for a pretty shitty existence, especially for career military.

hvybarrels

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2012, 12:02:18 AM »
If people worldwide could not get small arms, we wouldnt have anyone to fight.  That would make for a pretty shitty existence, especially for career military.

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Cougar8045

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2012, 07:53:55 AM »
Quote
2. Each State Party Shall establish and Maintain a national control system to regulate the export of munitions to the extent necessary to ensure that national controls on the export of the conventional arms covered by Paragraph a1 (a)-(h) are not circumvented by the export of munitions for those conventional arms.

-          3. Each State Party shall establish and maintain a national control system to regulate the export of parts and components to the extent necessary to ensure that national controls on the export of the conventional arms covered by Paragraph A1 are not circumvented by the export of parts and components of those items.

-          4. Each State Party shall establish or update, as appropriate, and maintain a national control list that shall include the items that fall within Paragraph 1 above, as defined on a national basis, based on relevant UN instruments at a minimum. Each State Party shall publish its control list to the extent permitted by national law.

At the very minimum, the ATT would have forced the US to establish a national gun registry, not just for guns, but for parts of guns, as well as ammunition.  That means serializing and registering everything, which is something that every [former] gun owner in the UK, Australia, Canada, et al, would tell you to avoid like the plague.  Aside from the infringement imposed by a national registry, the cost of guns and ammo would have increased fairly dramatically under this scheme. 

Bear in mind, that's only the strict requirements of the treaty, setting aside any twisting and turning the BATFEIEIO would have come up with to ensure our "full compliance with international law." 

Why are you so upset that the treaty didn't get signed, clshade?  I presume that you don't think gun control works on a state or national level, what makes you think it would have been a smashing success on an international scale?
I'm just a fluffy white bunny rabbit who lost his way. 

"If a thief be found breaking in, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. ..."  -Exodus 22:2

clshade

Re: USA does NOT sign the UN treaty
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2012, 11:43:32 AM »
Cougar, I'm not upset that it didn't get signed though I can see how my posts would make it look that way.

What concerns me is that I don't think the pro-gun lobby or news sources are reading the language of either the proposed treaty or the "final" text from last week correctly. I certainly understand the tendency to be doubtful about ~any~ gun related legal language, though, and agree that caution regarding such things is appropriate. The treaty simply doesn't have the affect on the 2nd amendment that the NRA says it would, though. 

For example, the word "export" is in each clause that you quoted except for #4 which, I've posted elsewhere, is the only one I thought was open to misinterpretation by gun control interests. The US already does all this. The treaty doesn't mandate registration of privately sold and owned firearms, it mandates records of weapons exported - which we already do. If weapons are sold via a local dealer that might export them then those records are mandated as well, which FFL dealers are already required to do for each and every sale - and those are domestic sales let alone international exports which are even more difficult.

Controlling firearm parts is also already covered, to the degree necessary to not "circumvent" the rest of the treaty, by the US definition of the receiver as the "firearm" and these are already all serialized and controlled to the same degree as assembled firearms. These controls already exists for domestic sales even though the treaty would only suggest they are required for exports.

Even in later parts of the treaty where the word "transfer" is used it still mean "international transfer" as defined by Article 2, Section B, Item 1. There is simply nothing in this language that mandates national registration of private ownership.

As far as the export of munitions, this again would have zero affect on domestic sales of ammunition and zero affect on the import of surplus ammunition to the US.. unless the US were to become a hotbed of illegal, firearms fueled conflict. And for the exports of munitions.... the US already keeps records enough to satisfy the avoidance of "circumventing" the treaty's main goal of creating accountability for arms sales. The BATFE is already all over this stuff - not for safety's sake but to make sure Uncle Sam gets his cut of the sales.

The reason this concerns me is that an unbiased reading of the language doesn't support the outrage and fear that characterized the reaction gun owners in the US actually had. The "final" text is specifically not applied to domestic sales and ownership at all. In fact, there was the possibility that the treaty would actually ~support~ the pro-gun perspective that the existing gun control laws are more than sufficient since the US has existing laws that already fill all of the requirements laid out by the treaty. Its no exaggeration that the US already has very high standards for international sales. This treaty was actually a chance for the US to rub that fact into everyone else's nose while posturing like the good guys we say we are on the international stage. Instead we asked for more time and were joined in that by the dubious company of China and Russia.

The fact that the gun lobby proudly claims responsibility for eroding US public support for the treaty based on vastly exaggerated reports of its potential affect on the 2nd amendment makes the pro-gun lobby look exactly like the unreasonable, myopic people the gun controllers claim they are. The whole public outrage over the past month has clearly shown that the gun lobby doesn't understand, or that it doesn't care about presenting truthfully, the limits the UN has in its control over member nations. The gun lobby is just as guilty of using the UN as a boogeyman to drum up pro-gun outrage as the gun controllers who use every shooting as a rallying cry without having any evidence that their gun control measures would actually make anyone safer from such shootings. That concerns me far more than the treaty itself because the truth and the law of the land supports the pro-gun stance without the need for such exaggerations. Domestically, at least.

As for international transfers, that is the real reason the US backed off from the treaty even though it got everything it wanted during the negotiations over the past month: we are simply too invested in the export of arms and technology, along with using them as tools to further our national interests in ways that would at times be at odds with the UN treaty.

To me the whole things smacks of how irrelevant the truth is in our public process and in our information sources. Not unexpected, of course, but for some reason I still get disappointed when I see it.

Probably way more answer than you asked for, Cougar, but that is what was really concerning me about the whole treaty process over the last couple months.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2012, 11:53:38 AM by clshade »