He called it

This one got me thinking.

Based on my semi-Taoist philosophy, shouldn’t we all doublethink sometimes ?

Ex.s:

Three men argue over the color of a tree.
The man sitting on the ground who does not look up argues brown, staring at the trunk.
The man lying on his back who only looks up argues green, seeing only the leaves.
The man who stands 30 feet away and looks at the whole tree sees both brown and green.

Three men argue over a piece of paper.
The man staring at the face of the paper says it is wide.
The man staring at the side of the paper argues it is thin.
The man who walks around the paper says both.

Points of view and truths are often dependent on where we are standing/looking, and though contradictory, can be equally true.
Sometimes both need to be accepted within one’s own mind to see the true picture.
Sometimes we need to take a step to the side, or look at it differently to see the other side of the truth.
Or both truths.
Or the whole truth.

Your example ignores the part that reads:  "and accepting both of them."

None of the people in your example believes the tree is brown AND the tree is green simultaneously.  Likewise, the one who sees brown and green doesn't simultaneously hold the belief that the tree is green, or brown.

This isn't about perception, as your example demonstrates.  it's about beliefs.

A better example would be:  I believe there is no God, but I also believe that God exists.

Both of these beliefs are contradictory, but you believe both are true.

Another would be:  The Second Amendment prohibits any laws that infringe on the individual's right to keep and bear arms, while also believing that laws which infringe on the Second Amendment where public safety is a concern are justified.

I would take you back to the Tower of Babel in the Old Testament. I think differences stems from God putting confusion and division in place. Even in our own way of thinking

I own lots of trees, I have owned many hundreds of them.
You forgot black, red yellow, blue, orange et al.
Facts and data Trump beliefs everytime.

I own lots of trees, I have owned many hundreds of them.
You forgot black, red yellow, blue, orange et al.
Facts and data Trump beliefs everytime.

Exactly.  Objective, demonstrable, provable facts do not rely on "beliefs." 
If you KNOW the sky is blue with white clouds, and I BELIEVE the sky is white with blue clouds, those are separate beliefs in two separate minds -- not 2 contradictory beliefs held by one person simultaneously.

There are no absolutes.
The color of the sky changes with time of day (or night)
The color of the ocean changes with depth.

Objective, demonstrable, provable facts generally depend on very specific and limited variables as they must be repeatable. 
And if the World is anything it’s variable.

There are no absolutes.
The color of the sky changes with time of day (or night)
The color of the ocean changes with depth.

Objective, demonstrable, provable facts generally depend on very specific and limited variables as they must be repeatable. 
And if the World is anything it’s variable.

Are you saying the sky is both blue and "some other color" at the same time?

What about the ocean -- in the same spot and at the same depth? Two colors simultaneously?

So, do trees also change color at night?  Or is that merely a property of light being reflected/absorbed from the object?  Does applying or removing light from an object change its color properties?

When you  turn off the lights in a room in your house at night, does the color change?  Or does the lack of light merely prevent you from seeing the true color?

Again, you're stuck on perception.  For your continued argument to apply to your topic, you'd have to believe that your room, the ocean and the sky are all different colors at the same time, even though observation and intelligence prove that the variable in question is the amount of light, not the object's color.

When you see someone walking away who when measured stands 6 ft, and they appear smaller and smaller as they move further away, do you believe they are actually shrinking while at the same time also believe they are their measured height?

BTW, "There are no absolutes" is an absolute.  That's an example of believing two conflicting things simultaneously.   

"There are no absolutes" is an absolute.  That's an example of believing two conflicting things simultaneously.

Exactly.

“you'd have to believe that your room, the ocean and the sky are all different colors at the same time, even though observation and intelligence prove that the variable in question is the amount of light, not the object's color.”

Exactly.

Though the intelligence part of that sentence is often highly skewed and subjective.
The lens and perspective matter.
Isn’t color just a reflection or absorption of light ? Or is it ?

"There are no absolutes" is an absolute.  That's an example of believing two conflicting things simultaneously.

Exactly.

“you'd have to believe that your room, the ocean and the sky are all different colors at the same time, even though observation and intelligence prove that the variable in question is the amount of light, not the object's color.”

Exactly.

Though the intelligence part of that sentence is often highly skewed and subjective.
The lens and perspective matter.
Isn’t color just a reflection or absorption of light ? Or is it ?

Wrong.

Your TOPIC is not about OPINION or PERSPECTIVE.

It's about DOUBLETHINK.

Re-read the definition in the meme you posted and get back to me.

Either you created this topic to have arguments (troll), or you don't fully comprehend the premise of the topic you started.

DOUBLETHINK = ONE PERSON SIMULTANEOUSLY HOLDING TWO CONTRADICTORY BELIEFS AND ACCEPTING THEM BOTH AS TRUE

Then there are folks with blinders on who believe they already know/have all the answers.  No amount of reasoning, logic, justification, etc will lead them to believe otherwise. . .

Double think?  Think some aren't even 0.02% think. . .

Then there are folks with blinders on who believe they already know/have all the answers.  No amount of reasoning, logic, justification, etc will lead them to believe otherwise. . .

Double think?  Think some aren't even 0.02% think. . .

+1 ^ 

Wrong.
Your TOPIC is not about OPINION or PERSPECTIVE.
It's about DOUBLETHINK.
Re-read the definition in the meme you posted and get back to me.
Either you created this topic to have arguments (troll), or you don't fully comprehend the premise of the topic you started.
DOUBLETHINK = ONE PERSON SIMULTANEOUSLY HOLDING TWO CONTRADICTORY BELIEFS AND ACCEPTING THEM BOTH AS TRUE

Not sure what is wrong.
And correct, it’s about doublethink
Holding Two contradictory BELIEFS and accepting them both as true simultaneously.

be·lief
/bəˈlēf
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

And there is no argument here except those you perceive and make into arguments in your perception.

+1 ^ 

Not sure what is wrong.
And correct, it’s about doublethink
Holding Two contradictory BELIEFS and accepting them both as true simultaneously.

And there is no argument here except those you perceive and make into arguments in your perception.

What TWO beliefs do any of your examples contain?  They have to be held by one person, not 2 or more.

The belief that a tree is both brown and green at the same time.
The belief that a piece is both wide and thin at the same time.

The ocean is green, blue and clear (colorless) all at the same time.
Color exists and does not exist at the same time.
Man is inherently evil and good at the same time.
A belief is based on perspective. (Or is it ?)

There are no absolutes and yet there are absolutes at the same time.

It depends.

Sometimes you just need to sit and think about all the contradictions inherent in things that occur at the same time.

The ocean is green, blue and clear (colorless) all at the same time.
Color exists and does not exist at the same time.
Man is inherently evil and good at the same time.
A belief is based on perspective.

There are no absolutes and yet there are absolutes at the same time.

It depends.

Sometimes you just need to sit and think about all the contradictions inherent in things that occur at the same time.

I believe you are unable to understand the definition of doublethink.
I believe you are able to understand the definition of doublethink, but you choose a definition that you made up rather than accepting the one that you posted.

I believe you didn't answer my question.

Perceived color is not a belief.  It's an observed characteristic.  You can't simultaneously observe two distinct colors at the same time for the same portion of water.  If the color at spot A is light blue, and the color at spot B is navy blue, they are not the same "thing" ... therefore not 2 colors at the same time.

You picked the ocean because it's fluid, and it gives you an example you can try and argue as many colors at once.  The tree is stationary.  I notice you abandoned that example completely.

It's not about color existing and not existing at the sane time (whatever that means).  Color is not a belief.  WHICH color you THINK you see is not a contradiction to believing the thing is also a different color.

You really don't know what you're talking about.

What is a belief Flapp ?

I already posted the dictionary definition so never mind your google-fu.
Or snide remark that I can google it myself.
There are so many interpretations of the definition of doublethink and examples on the internet, each within it’s own context and all based on the same Orwell quote.

Please clarify your definition of doublethink and what a belief is.


“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” — F. Scott Fitzgerald in “The Crack-Up,” Esquire Magazine, Feb. 1936.  (Pre-Orwell)

What is a belief Flapp ?

I already posted the dictionary definition so never mind your google-fu.
Or snide remark that I can google it myself.
There are so many interpretations of the definition of doublethink and examples on the internet, each within it’s own context and all based on the same Orwell quote.

Please clarify your definition of doublethink and what a belief is.


“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” — F. Scott Fitzgerald in “The Crack-Up,” Esquire Magazine, Feb. 1936.  (Pre-Orwell)

People who refuse to accept knowledge can't be educated. You just want to argue.

Where in the 1936 quote you posted is the word "accept?"  Ideas are not the same as beliefs.  It's possible to hold two opposing ideas in mind but not simultaneously accept them.

I can understand and respect opposing views on abortion, but that doesn't mean I accept both simultaneously.

Why are you only quoting fiction writers for this thread? 

“Historian H. Maynard Smith completed the book “Henry VIII and the Reformation” in 1948. Smith contended that a person who could perceive two conflicting sides of an issue might be overwhelmed by a mentally inflexible person:

A broad-minded man, who can see both sides of the question and is ready to hold opposed truths while confessing that he cannot reconcile them, is at a manifest disadvantage with a narrow-minded man who sees but one side, sees it clearly, and is ready to interpret the whole Bible, or, if need be, the whole universe, in accordance with his formula.”
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/01/05/intelligence/

I think this quote might be more appropriate in your case.
(Trying to overwhelm me with your mental inflexibility)
And it’s from a historian.
And I’m taking the words hold and accept to be virtually synonymous.

I’m not arguing anything.

Please clarify your definition of doublethink and what a belief is.

“Historian H. Maynard Smith completed the book “Henry VIII and the Reformation” in 1948. Smith contended that a person who could perceive two conflicting sides of an issue might be overwhelmed by a mentally inflexible person:

A broad-minded man, who can see both sides of the question and is ready to hold opposed truths while confessing that he cannot reconcile them, is at a manifest disadvantage with a narrow-minded man who sees but one side, sees it clearly, and is ready to interpret the whole Bible, or, if need be, the whole universe, in accordance with his formula.”
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/01/05/intelligence/

I think this quote might be more appropriate in your case.
(Trying to overwhelm me with your mental inflexibility)
And it’s from a historian.
And I’m taking the words hold and accept to be virtually synonymous.

I’m not arguing anything.

Please clarify your definition of doublethink and what a belief is.

"Perceive" and "see" are not synonyms for "accept."

Why can't you get that?

Just keep reading the quote:
“is ready to hold opposed truths while confessing that he cannot reconcile them,“

I’m not going down your usual rabbit hole of diversion and underhanded comments.

“ Why can't you get that?
People who refuse to accept knowledge can't be educated. You just want to argue.
You really don't know what you're talking about
Either you created this topic to have arguments (troll),...”

Please clarify your definition of doublethink and what a belief is.
Why can’t you do that ?