I certainly hope that when this is all said and done and government's reactions are analyzed that we will have a better idea of what worked and didn't work when it came to officials advising and leading the country. There is certainly a lot that could have been done better but I hesitate to monday morning quarterback too much.

I don't hesitate at all.  This is not anything new.  We have been through health scares many times. 

The way this one was politicized to get rid of Trump in an election year was too painfully obvious;

Enough said.

I swear we already went over all this talk about masks & OSHA, effectiveness, etc, etc

I never said they all lied with every statement they made.  But their inconsistencies, flip flops and outright lies in the face of common sense made it nearly impossible to trust them.

No transparency.  No consistency.  No data to allow us to judge for ourselves if the guidance made sense or not.  "Shut up, and color" was the general feeling they gave me.

To mandate masks or not should have been an immediate decision, but to do so flew in the face of the initial "masks won't help" statements.  Inconsistency.

They should have said to wear masks until we figure out what we are up against.  No, "or else".  Just an appeal for everyone to take precautions.  Hell, how many ran out and bought gas masks after the Japan subway sarin attack?  It's not that hard to convince people a little precaution is good and not a civil rights violation.  Making it a political argument just because Trump was at the forefront was on the Dems in DC and the MSM. 

Will we ever hold Pelosi and the media accountable for costing people their lives, like when she told everyone to "come down to China Town!  Nothing to fear!"?

Surgeon General posted vid on an air plane saying no need mask.

I agree "untill we know what were dealing with..." is the best option. And dont say cannot wear the best mask.

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In an OSHA controlled environment yes you are correct but thats not really what I had in mind. I had in mind a collapsed building where it would be all dusty and a significant chance of asbestos (among other hazards). If I was going into save someone and all I could find was a mask that was 50% effective I would still take that over no mask at all.

As far as having ratings, that may be true however the lack of a rating does not mean the product is inferior. Case in point: to be a certified organic farm you have to get expensive certifications but I have met farmers whose food is grown in organic soil, non-GMO, etc. and it is organic just the same but without the certification. I don't know whether that would be a factor among the "surgical masks"found at Longs, etc. but something to consider. Could always be some chinese company making crap masks and passing them off as quality ones too, who knows?

Carefull, sounds like moving of goal post.

There is a huge diff between the cdc, mayor, governor, etc...telling u to wear a rubbish mask and u deciding to wear something thats better than nothing in a spontaneous event (building falling). If this does happen, HMU, i have p100 respirator mask (unopened) i can give to you and a few for fellow coworkers.

Real surgical mask have a rating. Google and u will see.

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I certainly hope that when this is all said and done and government's reactions are analyzed that we will have a better idea of what worked and didn't work when it came to officials advising and leading the country. There is certainly a lot that could have been done better but I hesitate to monday morning quarterback too much.

Refer to holocaust thread. Heinsight, but those who recognize history already see it.

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I swear we already went over all this talk about masks & OSHA, effectiveness, etc, etc

Probably, but eef has long periods of not posting, so maybe he missed it. I dont mind explaining cause he is asking good questions. Unlike someone else who we go in circles with.

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I don't hesitate at all.  This is not anything new.  We have been through health scares many times. 

The way this one was politicized to get rid of Trump in an election year was too painfully obvious;

Enough said.

Not like this, not with social media and political divisiveness

Carefull, sounds like moving of goal post.

There is a huge diff between the cdc, mayor, governor, etc...telling u to wear a rubbish mask and u deciding to wear something thats better than nothing in a spontaneous event (building falling). If this does happen, HMU, i have p100 respirator mask (unopened) i can give to you and a few for fellow coworkers.

Real surgical mask have a rating. Google and u will see.

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If I put myself in the place of an official in charge of issuing guidance and regulation I can see two basic options. Issue mask guidances on the chance that masks might do something or not do anything until more information comes out about the effectiveness of masks. I know that if masks ended up doing nothing then my choice inconvenienced a lot of people for nothing. However if it turns out that masks would have helped but no guidance/regulations were made then I made a choice which potentially cost lives. In that context I understand why officials have been somewhat heavy handed with their mask regulations. 

I would also bet that they would rather avoid lawsuits as well from people who got sick and claimed it was because some store or government office didn't require masks.



I do believe real surgical masks have ratings, I was just trying to illustrate that a lack of rating doesn't inherently mean the product wont work.

If I put myself in the place of an official in charge of issuing guidance and regulation I can see two basic options. Issue mask guidances on the chance that masks might do something or not do anything until more information comes out about the effectiveness of masks. I know that if masks ended up doing nothing then my choice inconvenienced a lot of people for nothing. However if it turns out that masks would have helped but no guidance/regulations were made then I made a choice which potentially cost lives. In that context I understand why officials have been somewhat heavy handed with their mask regulations. 

I would also bet that they would rather avoid lawsuits as well from people who got sick and claimed it was because some store or government office didn't require masks.



I do believe real surgical masks have ratings, I was just trying to illustrate that a lack of rating doesn't inherently mean the product wont work.

The problem that most of us bring up is that this wasn't a health issue

"However if it turns out that masks would have helped but no guidance/regulations were made then I made a choice which potentially cost lives. In that context I understand why officials have been somewhat heavy handed with their mask regulations.

I would also bet that they would rather avoid lawsuits as well from people who got sick and claimed it was because some store or government office didn't require masks."

It is a control and Tort issue.
Fuck em.

That is all.

Motorcycle helmets save lives....but there is no law requiring it....

Motorcycle helmets save lives....but there is no law requiring it....

They try every  couple years to bring it up and attempt  to pass it so that Street Bikers United legal  will give then campaign donations to vote NO.

 It's basically extortion.

Not like this, not with social media and political divisiveness

I don't get what you're referring to.  What's "not like this" describing?

Are you saying we haven't had scares like this before?  I beg to differ.

We didn't need social media before the Internet.  We have newspapers, radios and movie theaters to help disseminate information.  Then TV came alone. 

The only thing different is that it's more instantaneous and updated 24/7 now.  But social networks existed in the form of face-to-face interactions.  Smaller foot print, but there were still the conspiracy theorists and fear mongers who tried to use the public soap box in their communities to spread rumors and blame certain people or groups.

The Spanish Flu pandemic killed approximately 25-50 million between Feb 1918 - Apr 1920 -- almost a century earlier than COVID-19. 

The 1918 Spanish flu was the first of three flu pandemics caused by H1N1 influenza A virus; the most recent one was the 2009 swine flu pandemic.

So, I stand by the comment that this is nothing new.  The fact that we have idiots and jackasses that choose to politicize a disease to win a presidential election doesn't change that.  Social Media did nothing to change the course of the disease.  You can't protect the world from a virus for which there is no vaccine no matter how advanced your communication media might be.

San Francisco Police Officers Dec 1918:

They try every  couple years to bring it up and attempt  to pass it so that Street Bikers United legal  will give then campaign donations to vote NO.

 It's basically extortion.

I know I'm slipping off the subject here, but I have a Hawaii motorcycle license and I use a helmet.
The main benefit to not requiring helmets is it creates a good supply of organ donors.
AKA called "Natural selection".
Ride carefully.
 

They try every  couple years to bring it up and attempt  to pass it so that Street Bikers United legal  will give then campaign donations to vote NO.

 It's basically extortion.

Helmets are mandatory in all states except Illinois, Iowa and New Hampshire.

Twenty-one states require helmets for all riders.  The rest require anyone under a given age use a helmet, usually riders under 18 or 21 years old. 

Thirty-one states' helmet laws cover all motorcycle-like vehicles, such as mopeds.  The rest specify that only bikes under a given engine CC rating are covered.

Hawaii:  17 and younger must have a helmet.  Covers all motorcycle-like vehicles.

So, yes, there is a law in Hawaii mandating it for those the legislators deem too young to make the choice for themselves.  Also, helmets are required for MC riders on all military properties.

https://www.iihs.org/topics/motorcycles/motorcycle-helmet-laws-table

Just FYI. 

I know I'm slipping off the subject here, but I have a Hawaii motorcycle license and I use a helmet.
The main benefit to not requiring helmets is it creates a good supply of organ donors.
AKA called "Natural selection".
Ride carefully.
 

I got hit by an SUV a few months ago on my bicycle. Glad I was wearing a helmet. Hit the curb with my head and looked up to the passenger side of said SUV

I know I'm slipping off the subject here, but I have a Hawaii motorcycle license and I use a helmet.
The main benefit to not requiring helmets is it creates a good supply of organ donors.
AKA called "Natural selection".
Ride carefully.
 

I was told by a safety instructor to only use a helmet if you think you have something upstairs worth protecting.

Kind of a self-licking ice cream cone.  The problem takes care of itself.  (As you said -- "Naturally").

I was told by a safety instructor to only use a helmet if you think you have something upstairs worth protecting.

He was probably telling you not to wear a helmet! 

The problem that most of us bring up is that this wasn't a health issue

"However if it turns out that masks would have helped but no guidance/regulations were made then I made a choice which potentially cost lives. In that context I understand why officials have been somewhat heavy handed with their mask regulations.

I would also bet that they would rather avoid lawsuits as well from people who got sick and claimed it was because some store or government office didn't require masks."

It is a control and Tort issue.
Fuck em.

That is all.

It wasn't a health issue? Thousand more people are dying and hospitals are filled to the max, how is that not a health issue?


And how is it a control issue? To what end? Some politician is rubbing his hand together in glee that he managed to get people to wear masks? Is the requirement that you wear clothing to cover your genitals also just the man keeping us down too?

I don't get what you're referring to.  What's "not like this" describing?

Are you saying we haven't had scares like this before?  I beg to differ.

We didn't need social media before the Internet.  We have newspapers, radios and movie theaters to help disseminate information.  Then TV came alone. 

The only thing different is that it's more instantaneous and updated 24/7 now.  But social networks existed in the form of face-to-face interactions.  Smaller foot print, but there were still the conspiracy theorists and fear mongers who tried to use the public soap box in their communities to spread rumors and blame certain people or groups.

The Spanish Flu pandemic killed approximately 25-50 million between Feb 1918 - Apr 1920 -- almost a century earlier than COVID-19. 

The 1918 Spanish flu was the first of three flu pandemics caused by H1N1 influenza A virus; the most recent one was the 2009 swine flu pandemic.

So, I stand by the comment that this is nothing new.  The fact that we have idiots and jackasses that choose to politicize a disease to win a presidential election doesn't change that.  Social Media did nothing to change the course of the disease.  You can't protect the world from a virus for which there is no vaccine no matter how advanced your communication media might be.

San Francisco Police Officers Dec 1918:

Pandemics are nothing new of course but the overall situation is. No one had to deal with social media caused division during the Spanish Flu.

Motorcycle helmets save lives....but there is no law requiring it....

Hawaii law does require you to wear eye protection while riding a motorcycle though