HPD Approval (Read 3214 times)

Rico808

HPD Approval
« on: April 13, 2022, 06:42:42 PM »
 Who makes the overall decision on legality of a firearm?

     I have some plans for a build but I’d hate to buy parts and build it only to have them say no. Do they give me a chance to fix it/turn it back to parts? Or do they just confiscate it?

     Would be nice to have someone at HPD to email my plans to before I start the build.

     Anyone know what would be the best way to get questions answered?

Thank you in advance
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

changemyoil66

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2022, 07:53:14 PM »
Read the law and see if its excluded. HRS 134.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Flapp_Jackson

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2022, 08:13:55 PM »
Who makes the overall decision on legality of a firearm?

     I have some plans for a build but I’d hate to buy parts and build it only to have them say no. Do they give me a chance to fix it/turn it back to parts? Or do they just confiscate it?

     Would be nice to have someone at HPD to email my plans to before I start the build.

     Anyone know what would be the best way to get questions answered?

Thank you in advance
Yes, it would be very nice to have someone in state government provide interpretations of the gun laws, so we know whether or not our interpretations are correct or not.  Unfortunately, the only people that will make that determination are called a judge and jury.  The AG's office says you need to hire your own attorney if you're seeking legal definitions and interpretations.  The AG isn't going to give legal opinions outside of a courtroom unless you are asking from a state government employee perspective.

Even if you found someone with the authority to "bless" your detailed plans as "legal", there's nothing stopping them from declaring it illegal when you take the finished firearm for "inspection."  That runs a much higher risk of being confiscated than a few parts being inspected during the build (as in, presenting the lower and getting input as to how the mag is permanently fixed; only requires 2 parts and isn't yet a functional weapon.  Much less risk of confiscation).

You can't get something you haven't started building approved as "legal."  If you ask for an opinion on an abstract drawing or description, you're going to get various answers depending on who you ask.  That's just the MO of HPD.

There are so few rules on what makes a gun illegal, you're better off deciding on what you want to build and asking on here what features or specs might be a problem.

The way receivers are classified now, it would be unlikely to have them confiscated unless you did something that can't be remedied.  The old way receivers were categorized, if it was ever built and registered as a rifle, it could never be reassembled as a pistol.  Now, receivers don't have to be identified as a rifle OR a pistol on the ATF 4473.  It can be classified "Other", and HPD can register it as "Receiver Only."  At that point, you have a registered (albeit unassembled) firearm -- by definition -- legally acquired and registered.

Question:  If you buy and register a shotgun, will it always be legal?  Of course, that depends on any modifications you make.  If you shorten the barrel to less than 18" and/or make the overall length less than 26", it then falls under the NFA and requires a special certificate from the ATF and payment of an NFA tax.

Since all NFA-controlled items are illegal in Hawaii (with a few exceptions if you're LE or military), making the shotgun OAL or barrel too short makes it illegal here.

The same concept apples to an AR pistol.  You can ask if 10 features or specs are legal, and get back a "yes" answer.  Then, after doing the build, you unintentionally did something that makes it illegal.  See the problem?  A lot of restrictions are contingent on other conditions.  If you don't have the thing fully assembled, anything you do to it might be a problem.  Let's say, you want a detachable mag and a semi-auto action.  Now you need to go through the whole list of features that are limited to ONE out of the 6+ items and see what you can live without.  If you can live with only one feature out of all the things that define it as an assault pistol, then you can keep the detachable mag and DI gas system.

Here are the rules for an AR pistol.  As long as you avoid the characteristics that make it an "Assault Pistol," it's not illegal.

Quote
"Assault pistol" means a semiautomatic pistol that accepts a detachable magazine and has two or more of the following characteristics:

     (1)  An ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;

     (2)  A threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward hand grip, or silencer;

     (3)  A shroud that is attached to or partially or completely encircles the barrel and permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the second hand without being burned;

     (4)  A manufactured weight of fifty ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;

     (5)  A centerfire pistol with an overall length of twelve inches or more; or

     (6)  It is a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm;

but does not include a firearm with a barrel sixteen or more inches in length, an antique pistol as defined in this section, or a curio or relic as those terms are used in 18 United States Code section 921(a)(13) or 27 Code of Federal Regulations section 478.11.

Since detachable magazine is listed before the "and" clause, you can ignore every other feature if you permanently attach the magazine, which is what most builders do.  Just one single change from a "normal" AR pistol, and it's legal.

Same logic applies to the 5th word of the first sentence:  "semiautomatic".  If you disable or don't install the gas system, making it a manual action pistol, nothing following that clause is relevant.

If you want to turn this into an exercise for testing HPD to see what parts of the envelope you can push and how far, then have at it.  Otherwise, you might be overthinking the project and the details pertaining to legality.
       
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

Rico808

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2022, 08:28:55 PM »
Thank you.

Yeah just trying to push the envelope but stay within the lines.

Feels like I would need to bring a lawyer with me to registration.
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

Motorman

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2022, 08:40:52 PM »
Post your build here and we can let you know if it’s okay (we stalk the forums too)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2022, 08:42:06 PM »
Thank you.

Yeah just trying to push the envelope but stay within the lines.

Feels like I would need to bring a lawyer with me to registration.

If you have the money for a lawyer, that's the first hurdle.  The second is to be willing to be a test case.  That takes time, money if you miss work and don't get paid, and being willing to possibly be found guilty of a felony gun charge, which makes you ineligible to own any firearms (talk to Dog The Bounty Hunter about how that works).

Unless you're charged with one of these ridiculous gun crimes, you'll need to convince a judge that the existence of the law inherently infringes on your ability to do whatever it is since you're a law-abiding citizen.  There has to be something you're being denied by the law.  In the Baker case, he was denied the right to protect himself while doing a risky job.  He wanted to CC while serving court notices to people who might decide to kill the messenger. 

Anyway, if you're looking to push boundaries and rock the gun control boat of this state, maybe you should start by contacting the lawyers and group leaders who are already taking the state to court.  They may have bigger fish to fry for you than not being able to build a certain kind of gun you want.   :thumbsup: :geekdanc:
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

drck1000

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2022, 09:40:18 AM »
Who makes the overall decision on legality of a firearm?

     I have some plans for a build but I’d hate to buy parts and build it only to have them say no. Do they give me a chance to fix it/turn it back to parts? Or do they just confiscate it?

     Would be nice to have someone at HPD to email my plans to before I start the build.

     Anyone know what would be the best way to get questions answered?

Thank you in advance
Ask dogman, or others here, first.

Additionally, look up discussions on constructive possession and constructive intent on gun forums.  Be sure to do some reading on the forums to get background on the posters, to get through the "noise". 

Rico808

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2022, 04:55:36 PM »
So I’ve decided I don’t mind going with a non-detachable mag.

I was wondering on what’s yall thoughts with Cross Armory’s AR Fixed Mag. It removes the magazine release all together. I can’t find anything in the HRS regarding methods and means for a permanent mag. Do you think this would be acceptable at HPD?

https://crossarmory.com/shop/cross-armory-ar-fixed-mag/

Second question is round limit. In a non detachable mag I couldn’t find if there is one for a pistol

Mahalo for your time. 🤙🏽
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

Flapp_Jackson

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2022, 05:46:11 PM »
So I’ve decided I don’t mind going with a non-detachable mag.

I was wondering on what’s yall thoughts with Cross Armory’s AR Fixed Mag. It removes the magazine release all together. I can’t find anything in the HRS regarding methods and means for a permanent mag. Do you think this would be acceptable at HPD?

https://crossarmory.com/shop/cross-armory-ar-fixed-mag/

Second question is round limit. In a non detachable mag I couldn’t find if there is one for a pistol

Mahalo for your time. 🤙🏽

From past threads, HPD requires the mag be welded. That means TIG welded, not using JB Weld or other epoxy/adhesive.

The description I see is, "TIG welded along the length of both long sides of the mag/magwell."

https://2ahawaii.com/index.php?topic=13347.msg195794#msg195794

The easiest thing to do is register the lower before doing anything to it.  Then you can do your build.  There's no statutory requirement to re-register the firearm one it's completed.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

zippz

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2022, 10:39:28 PM »
There are several lawsuits on hold at the Supreme Court pending the decision on NYSRPA v Bruen.   A good ruling in that case could open things up for the others on hold for bump stocks, magazines, and assault weapons bans.  Hawaii's firearms restrictions may be lifted sometime over the next few years.  Wait and see how NYSRPA decision goes first in the next month or so.

Rico808

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2022, 01:59:59 PM »
Thanks everyone… Well I got my answer today via Firearms Department.

A Non-Detachable magazine NEEDS TO BE WELDED.

& as to something in writing describing how it’s to be welded. No luck. Just needs to be welded, permanent and pass their inspection.

Aloha 🤙🏽
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

changemyoil66

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #11 on: May 18, 2022, 02:06:48 PM »
Thanks everyone… Well I got my answer today via Firearms Department.

A Non-Detachable magazine NEEDS TO BE WELDED.

& as to something in writing describing how it’s to be welded. No luck. Just needs to be welded, permanent and pass their inspection.

Aloha 🤙🏽

Did they tell you to bring it back?

Rico808

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 02:21:45 PM »
Did they tell you to bring it back?

I didn’t want to risk it getting taken away or anything. I went there to ask questions before I start building or acquire one.
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

6716J

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2022, 12:04:39 PM »
Thanks everyone… Well I got my answer today via Firearms Department.

A Non-Detachable magazine NEEDS TO BE WELDED.

& as to something in writing describing how it’s to be welded. No luck. Just needs to be welded, permanent and pass their inspection.

Aloha 🤙🏽

Did they SHOW you where it says so in HRS-134 that it has to be welded?

Yes I know it's all semantics as who wants to be the test case? BUT, if they can't show you HOW it's to be fixed, it's up to you. Remember that the engine in your car is REMOVABLE but not DETACHABLE. There is a huge legal distinction which is why states like CA have their laws written with clear cut definitions.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy.

Rico808

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2022, 02:47:30 PM »
Did they SHOW you where it says so in HRS-134 that it has to be welded?

Yes I know it's all semantics as who wants to be the test case? BUT, if they can't show you HOW it's to be fixed, it's up to you. Remember that the engine in your car is REMOVABLE but not DETACHABLE. There is a huge legal distinction which is why states like CA have their laws written with clear cut definitions.

No. They just said it had to be welded and permanent. Don’t have the cash flow to be that test case lol I’d have to sell my guns to pay for a lawyer 🤣

I don’t mind following the rules as long as the rules were clear.
Living life on the edge. Just trying to spread my 2A wings as far as I can.

When you stand for nothing, you fall for everything

Flapp_Jackson

Re: HPD Approval
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2022, 02:58:43 PM »
No. They just said it had to be welded and permanent. Don’t have the cash flow to be that test case lol I’d have to sell my guns to pay for a lawyer 🤣

I don’t mind following the rules as long as the rules were clear.

But, would you need a lawyer?  You aren't defending yourself against a charge.  You would be suing HPD/Hawaii for enforcing undocumented and substantially burdensome requirements in order to build and own a legal firearm.

If the response you received is written, that and HRS 134 are all the evidence you need.  It would then be up to HPD's reps to demonstrate how their requirements originates and how they are not burdensome.

The average gun builder isn't trained, experienced or equipped to weld parts on a firearm.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw