Another mass shooting (Read 53952 times)

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #160 on: June 09, 2022, 11:42:55 AM »
Active shooters who target schools tend not to be inner city kids too. This me parallel the fact that wealthy people are more likely to commit suicide than poor people. These types of active shooters tend to be white males as well. There are definitely some other social factors at work here.

Of course I care about the kids. That's the same type of question people on the left are saying, accusing of caring about guns more than children. But what I'm doing is trying to balance everything to solve the problem at hand

Let's say that by some ingenious and accurate scientific method, you're able to pinpoint the exact income amount, family make-up, racial ethnicity, geographic location, age, gender, grade point average, hair and eye color, number of hours spent playing violent video games, books read, YouTube videos watched, movies streamed, medications being taken and number of pets in the home.

With all that specific and correlated data at your disposal, what would that do for you?  Are you then going to be able to identify the reasons mass shooters become mass shooters?  Would you them be able to change the suspected critical variables to prevent it from ever happening?  How would you go about using that data to prevent shootings?  Would you EXPEL all students who meet some arbitrary threshold of those factors so they never get a chance to attend school?  Would that stop someone from going to a school they don't attend (Sandy Hook, Uvalde, etc. seems to prove otherwise)?

Would you force anyone in that group to undergo psychiatric therapy to see if they are prone to violence?  Would you place their entire household on a "No Firearms" watchlist so there are no firearms within easy reach?

Trying to classify mass shooters by this or that factor may be interesting or even instructive, but you still can't use those profiles to take action.  All you can do is take each individual as they present evidence they are actually a threat.  Where they land on the EEF scale of coincidental demographics has no bearing on what you can do legally.  How are you even going to gather that information on every single person in order to create the group of probable threats?
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

changemyoil66

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #161 on: June 09, 2022, 12:34:31 PM »
Let's say that by some ingenious and accurate scientific method, you're able to pinpoint the exact income amount, family make-up, racial ethnicity, geographic location, age, gender, grade point average, hair and eye color, number of hours spent playing violent video games, books read, YouTube videos watched, movies streamed, medications being taken and number of pets in the home.

With all that specific and correlated data at your disposal, what would that do for you?  Are you then going to be able to identify the reasons mass shooters become mass shooters?  Would you them be able to change the suspected critical variables to prevent it from ever happening?  How would you go about using that data to prevent shootings?  Would you EXPEL all students who meet some arbitrary threshold of those factors so they never get a chance to attend school?  Would that stop someone from going to a school they don't attend (Sandy Hook, Uvalde, etc. seems to prove otherwise)?

Would you force anyone in that group to undergo psychiatric therapy to see if they are prone to violence?  Would you place their entire household on a "No Firearms" watchlist so there are no firearms within easy reach?

Trying to classify mass shooters by this or that factor may be interesting or even instructive, but you still can't use those profiles to take action.  All you can do is take each individual as they present evidence they are actually a threat.  Where they land on the EEF scale of coincidental demographics has no bearing on what you can do legally.  How are you even going to gather that information on every single person in order to create the group of probable threats?

The MIT school shooter is Asian and used 2 handguns. 9mm and 22LR calibers.  Prior to the Vegas shooter, this held as the highest death count and still is higher than the Ulvade shooting (32 vs. 21).

eyeeatingfish

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #162 on: June 10, 2022, 12:03:20 AM »
Let's say that by some ingenious and accurate scientific method, you're able to pinpoint the exact income amount, family make-up, racial ethnicity, geographic location, age, gender, grade point average, hair and eye color, number of hours spent playing violent video games, books read, YouTube videos watched, movies streamed, medications being taken and number of pets in the home.

With all that specific and correlated data at your disposal, what would that do for you?  Are you then going to be able to identify the reasons mass shooters become mass shooters?  Would you them be able to change the suspected critical variables to prevent it from ever happening?  How would you go about using that data to prevent shootings?  Would you EXPEL all students who meet some arbitrary threshold of those factors so they never get a chance to attend school?  Would that stop someone from going to a school they don't attend (Sandy Hook, Uvalde, etc. seems to prove otherwise)?

Would you force anyone in that group to undergo psychiatric therapy to see if they are prone to violence?  Would you place their entire household on a "No Firearms" watchlist so there are no firearms within easy reach?

Trying to classify mass shooters by this or that factor may be interesting or even instructive, but you still can't use those profiles to take action.  All you can do is take each individual as they present evidence they are actually a threat.  Where they land on the EEF scale of coincidental demographics has no bearing on what you can do legally.  How are you even going to gather that information on every single person in order to create the group of probable threats?

I didn't say demographics was the key to solving the problem, I only pointed out demographics in response to the suggestion that inner city kids having guns must be a deterrent to active School shooters.

Furthermore demographics just help you to understand the problem better. Who are the people taking these actions, why are they taking these actions, how are they able to think these actions, etc etc

eyeeatingfish

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #163 on: June 10, 2022, 12:05:46 AM »
They tend not to? Or people intent on murder tend to go places with easier pickings?

The left likes to completely ignore gang violence where the vast majority of homicides take place because it doesn't fit their gun control agenda.

That's kinda racist.

Those really are two separate issues though.

I would say your claim that they ignore gang violence is wrong. The left  wants to solve gang violence too.

groveler

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #164 on: June 10, 2022, 06:43:27 AM »
Those really are two separate issues though.

I would say your claim that they ignore gang violence is wrong. The left  wants to solve gang violence too.
"The left  wants to solve gang violence too."
Bullschiff!
The "left" who are generally the more well off people in our society,
think they are immune to gang violence and it serves their interests.
"Laws for thee but not for me".
 :wtf:

aletheuo137

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2022, 07:08:11 AM »
 

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groveler

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2022, 08:21:59 AM »


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IIRC the word "Sinister" is Latin for left      handed.
 >:D

hvybarrels

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2022, 08:30:20 AM »
Those really are two separate issues though.

So "gun violence" doesn't matter if it's poor people doing the vast majority of the dying?

okay dude
The F in Communism stands for Food

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2022, 12:35:09 PM »
Those really are two separate issues though.

I would say your claim that they ignore gang violence is wrong. The left  wants to solve gang violence too.

Based on my decades of observation, the Left SAYS they want to, and will, solve all kinds of problems -- including crime -- but they rarely, if ever, do.

If they solved all those problems, what would they have left to run their campaign on?  "Orange man bad?"

Nope.  Drugs, crime, gangs, violence against the population, burglaries, theft, vagrancy, and high taxes.  These are the diseases of the Democrat-controlled cities that never go away, because #1 they are very difficult to solve, and #2 the issues tend to attract voters, so the Dems NEED these problems to stay in power.  How can you promise to solve gang violence if someone already solved it?

Instead, we get Dems pushing back against Republican solutions as racist or too expensive.  Meanwhile, people continue to die.

Keep letting the law breakers out of jail, and this is the result.  Take them off the streets, and you at least reduce the amount of crime, if not solve it completely.

As for gang violence, there's a fix for that:  economic opportunity.  Unless these Dem-run cities can help provide that, the gangs will remain "employment opportunities".
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #169 on: June 11, 2022, 03:01:41 AM »
So "gun violence" doesn't matter if it's poor people doing the vast majority of the dying?

okay dude

Strawman.

People dying from opioid abuse and people dying from obesity are two separate issues. Just because you talk about one doesn't mean you don't care about the other.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #170 on: June 11, 2022, 03:03:33 AM »
"The left  wants to solve gang violence too."
Bullschiff!
The "left" who are generally the more well off people in our society,
think they are immune to gang violence and it serves their interests.
"Laws for thee but not for me".
 :wtf:

They want to solve gang violence, just many of their ideas are bad at doing so.

Rocky

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #171 on: June 11, 2022, 08:55:10 AM »
Even though active shootings at schools dont happen often, it's odd how none happened in the hood.  It's like the gunmen knew to stay away. 

Proof that ccw prevents gun violence and mass shootings ! :geekdanc:
“I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.”
                                                           Franklin D. Roosevelt

hvybarrels

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #172 on: June 11, 2022, 09:52:06 AM »

People dying from opioid abuse and people dying from obesity are two separate issues. Just because you talk about one doesn't mean you don't care about the other.

The only difference is that one type of gun violence is useful to your gun grabber agenda while the other is useful for getting rid of the rest of the constitution with a militarized police force and all-powerful “intelligence” agencies.

The reason why you don’t want to talk about both at the same time is that both your arguments undermine each other.

Out of control gang violence shows that we need the 2nd Amendment now more than ever and school shootings highlights the complete uselessness of intelligence agencies and militarized law enforcement for anything other than the harassment and intimidation of law abiding citizens.
The F in Communism stands for Food

QUIETShooter

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #173 on: June 11, 2022, 12:25:48 PM »
I keep thinking about the Ulvade incident and I shake my head.  I dunno.  I'm not well versed in LE protocols but it just seems weird how everything panned out.

Dozens(?) of armed LE standing around showing off their tactical gear and vests with parents pleading for them to go inside and confront the shooter.  Again I wasn't there but it sure doesn't paint a good picture for those of us who wasn't there.

The excuses of the police chief when asked about the absence of a radio on him was just so lame.  I cannot believe he expects us (or me at least) to think it made sense.

Were the LE scared?  I bet they were and I don't blame them one bit.  But courage is not the absence of fear.  It is what you do in spite of that fear.

I keep thinking of that male teacher who got shot but survived the ordeal.  He said:  I will never forgive them (law enforcement).  They were outside and had body armor.  I was inside and I got shot.  I had no body armor.

The LE of Ulvade had better sit down and re-assess their active shooter protocols.  Maybe all of their protocols.  And that police chief needs to step down and be replaced.

Sometimes you gotta know when to save your bullets.

macsak

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #174 on: June 11, 2022, 01:15:21 PM »
nationwide, the protocol is the same
if there are injuries, or shooting is going on, you go in, even without backup
no questions, no hesitation
they had training this year, and every year

[quote auhthor=QUIETShooter link=topic=45914.msg424141#msg424141 date=1654986348]
I keep thinking about the Ulvade incident and I shake my head.  I dunno.  I'm not well versed in LE protocols but it just seems weird how everything panned out.

Dozens(?) of armed LE standing around showing off their tactical gear and vests with parents pleading for them to go inside and confront the shooter.  Again I wasn't there but it sure doesn't paint a good picture for those of us who wasn't there.

The excuses of the police chief when asked about the absence of a radio on him was just so lame.  I cannot believe he expects us (or me at least) to think it made sense.

Were the LE scared?  I bet they were and I don't blame them one bit.  But courage is not the absence of fear.  It is what you do in spite of that fear.

I keep thinking of that male teacher who got shot but survived the ordeal.  He said:  I will never forgive them (law enforcement).  They were outside and had body armor.  I was inside and I got shot.  I had no body armor.

The LE of Ulvade had better sit down and re-assess their active shooter protocols.  Maybe all of their protocols.  And that police chief needs to step down and be replaced.
[/quote]

bass monkey

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2022, 09:19:26 PM »
I was thinking,  what's the difference between someone outside the school with a firearm & someone inside the school with a firearm. 

I mean they were willing to rush the gun men inside but begged the gun men outside.

One was directly killing the kids while the other was (in) directly getting the kids killed.

Not sure if there were more parents then LEO there
Not sure who/if there were civilian firearms on scene in person or in vehicles.

Flapp_Jackson

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2022, 09:45:20 PM »
I was thinking,  what's the difference between someone outside the school with a firearm & someone inside the school with a firearm. 

I mean they were willing to rush the gun men inside but begged the gun men outside.

One was directly killing the kids while the other was (in) directly getting the kids killed.

Not sure if there were more parents then LEO there
Not sure who/if there were civilian firearms on scene in person or in vehicles.

I think (based on nothing but conjecture) that (1) the Cops have the authority to issue commands to the parents, and society has been conditioned to obey -- whereas the criminal with the gun had no such authority and was fair game; (2) there were more than one Cop outside holding the parents back compared to one gunman inside; (3) if the Cops tasered, cuffed and/or shot you, the parent, you'd have zero chance of helping your kid/s -- plus, if the Cops do decide to breach, they don't need to be occupied with a bunch of uncontrollable parents, too.

We assume those in authority have the training and equipment to better deal with a situation.  It takes a real effort mentally to analyze the situation, understand the Cops are impotent, and decide to take action no matter what the Cops threaten you with.  How many parents were actually willing to rush the school, or were they just acting out to get the Cops to do their jobs?  Hard to know.
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
-- George Bernard Shaw

eyeeatingfish

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #177 on: June 12, 2022, 05:04:18 AM »
I was thinking,  what's the difference between someone outside the school with a firearm & someone inside the school with a firearm. 

I mean they were willing to rush the gun men inside but begged the gun men outside.

One was directly killing the kids while the other was (in) directly getting the kids killed.

Not sure if there were more parents then LEO there
Not sure who/if there were civilian firearms on scene in person or in vehicles.

If a response was well orchestrated that would include things like a perimeter and command center. A group of parents, however heroic they may be, could present problems if they started running in so generally speaking I think cops are justified to have crowd control. It's tough though, emotions running super high, some poor cop has to tell a parent to stand back and wait while the parent has no idea if their kid is dead or dying.

eyeeatingfish

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #178 on: June 12, 2022, 05:11:51 AM »
The only difference is that one type of gun violence is useful to your gun grabber agenda while the other is useful for getting rid of the rest of the constitution with a militarized police force and all-powerful “intelligence” agencies.

The reason why you don’t want to talk about both at the same time is that both your arguments undermine each other.


No they don't.
You are just pulling a whataboutism. Lefties have ideas about gun control they think will help with mass shootings and ideas they think will help with gang shootings. Saying what about gang violence completely ignores that. It is just a dihonest smear tactic against lefties. You can disagree with their beliefs on how to solve the problems but claiming they don't care about gang violence is just a lie.

And I am definitely not a lefty, I just don't accept dishonest arguments, even when they favor my side.

changemyoil66

Re: Another mass shooting
« Reply #179 on: June 12, 2022, 05:47:33 AM »
Hmmmmmm....there is gang gun related problems? I havent been told this by the media yet, or things like keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.


They dont care about gang violence or the drug problem. What theyre doing or lack there of shows it. Actions speak louder than words.

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« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 05:53:18 AM by changemyoil66 »