You’re relating/linking different things

   I also was thinking about the downside of MM the other day.

   Many SD events occur w/o firing a shot yet we train to draw and discharge 2 or more rounds in less than 2 or 3 seconds.
What if perp drops weapon in the middle of your draw ?
Perp backs up/retreats ?
Suspected perp ends up not being  a perp ?
  Sure there  are more scenarios but you get the pic.

   So thought up a new "Target Awareness" drill.
Assistant behind shooter MAY  light up target with lazer  (SIRT) or colored light when timer goes off to indicate a  "No Shoot"  scenario.
Can shooter assess shoot/no shoot in under that 1 second and respond accordingly ? 
May be tight in timing but I think we'll give it a try.

   I also was thinking about the downside of MM the other day.

   Many SD events occur w/o firing a shot yet we train to draw and discharge 2 or more rounds in less than 2 or 3 seconds.
What if perp drops weapon in the middle of your draw ?
Perp backs up/retreats ?
Suspected perp ends up not being  a perp ?
  Sure there  are more scenarios but you get the pic.

 

Legally, if you draw your weapon and do not shoot, you must NOT have considered your life to be in danger -- at least in the mind of the prosecutor.  Therefore, you could be charged with brandishing and/or assault with a deadly weapon if you draw and don't shoot. 
Please produce source.


However, if you draw your weapon, and the threat is stopped (bad guy flees or surrenders), most people will have that register before placing the finger on the trigger.  There should be about a second between drawing and firing where your finger goes from safe position to being on the trigger.  In that time, you have the opportunity to abort placing 2 shots center-mass.
[/quotePlease produce source.

0.54
not consistent but that was the best time (unconcealed from level II )

Can you clarify?

People have been arrested for firing warning shots.  The rationale was, if your level of fear was not great enough to aim those shots at the perceived threat, then you were not justified in bringing lethal force to bear.
Florida woman sentenced to 20 years for firing warning shot released on bond
https://www.foxnews.com/us/florida-woman-sentenced-to-20-years-for-firing-warning-shot-released-on-bond
Woman faces jail time for firing warning shot as person reached for her child
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/woman-faces-jail-time-for-firing-warning-shot-as-person-reached-for-her-child/ar-AA11wZZ3
Virginia Pastor Arrested for Brandishing Gun
to Defend Himself Against Racist Mob,
Sheriff Later Apologizes
https://atlantablackstar.com/2020/06/18/virginia-pastor-arrested-for-brandishing-gun-to-defend-himself-against-racist-mob-sheriff-later-apologizes/
Basically, if you feel threatened but don't fire, you now have the POTENTIAL backlash of either the attacker or witnesses claiming you brandished the gun unprovoked.  In court, it's much easier to say you were in fear for your life if you made the extreme choice to fire.  If the incident was defused by presentation of the gun and you failed to report the incident yourself, you better get a lawyer when the Cops show up with an arrest warrant.
Tons of sites with anecdotal and legal opinions and stories on the subject.  As we were told in training, it mostly depends on where the incident occurs.  In Hawaii, you will be arrested as a matter of policy, then released if the investigation finds you were justified -- maybe.  In some Texas towns, you're more likely to get a handshake from the Sheriff and an offer to replace your spent ammo!   
While firing a warning shot is different than holding your fire, it illustrates how the law views "in fear for my life," and that ANY use of a concealed handgun needs something to demonstrate you had a justifiable belief lethal force was necessary -- and the most obvious demonstration is pulling the trigger.
Am I saying you should never give the threat a pass if they retreat or surrender?  Of course not. 
But I am saying you need to be 100% sure you can justify presenting a firearm before you draw the weapon.  Substituting muscle memory and training for good judgement in a tense situation isn't wise.  Hopefully your training goes through enough shoot-no shoot exercises to prepare you for that time that we all hope never comes.

I was not asking you to give examples of "Warning shots".
I wanted an answer to ..


Quote from: Flapp_Jackson on November 07, 2022, 10:57:47 AM

    Legally, if you draw your weapon and do not shoot, you must NOT have considered your life to be in danger -- at least in the mind of the prosecutor.  Therefore, you could be charged with brandishing and/or assault with a deadly weapon if you draw and don't shoot.
 
  Please produce source.

There's no definitive 'source' that says you must fire to be legally in fear for your life.

Legally if you draw your weapon and do not shoot, you must NOT have considered your life to be in danger -- at least in the mind of the prosecutor.  Therefore, you could be charged with brandishing and/or assault with a deadly weapon if you draw and don't shoot."

is incorrect ?


I just wanted validation of your statement.
Trust but verify.

I mean,I'd hate to go to jail cuz I did not shoot somebody. 

So your statement  . . .

Legally if you draw your weapon and do not shoot, you must NOT have considered your life to be in danger -- at least in the mind of the prosecutor.  Therefore, you could be charged with brandishing and/or assault with a deadly weapon if you draw and don't shoot."

is incorrect ?


I just wanted validation of your statement.
Trust but verify.

I mean,I'd hate to go to jail cuz I did not shoot somebody. 

So I witnessed during a simulator here that someone was doing the check behind you thing. The one where you turn around and check left behind and then check right side behind.

Scene:

A store you enter was being robbed and workers were shot dead (1 dead body in the open). You are standing about 8 feet from where you entered and see 1 dead body.  1 individual with a gun was coming out from the back with items in his hand and wearing a mask.  He then shouts to his friend to come out to the front too. He then points his gun at you.

The issue with this habit if it's muscle memory is the simulator had a 2nd bad guy come out .  Now normally this could not be helped or known, but prior to the individual shooting the 1st bad guy, the 1st bad guy was calling for his friend to come to the front "hey man lets go" while looking behind him (talking in the direction of bad guy 2).  The person (good guy) doing the simulation didn't hear bad guy 1 call out to his friend.  But shortly after shooting bad guy 1, he did the scan behind thing. As he turned, bad guy 2 showed up and shot him.

Training points:

John Lovell (Warrior Poet) mentions that most people who do the scan thing do it so quickly that there is no way 1 could see or notice a 2nd threat. So he has a vid on how long it takes him to do the scan behind. But prior to scanning behind, he takes the same amount of time to scan the front to make sure there are no other threats.



Knockout Lights (Mike) had a story of a SWAT guy shooting a bad guy in a grocery store. He had tunnel vision. He swore he fired of a few rounds and the bad guy didn't drop. So he though he had a empty mag. So he dropped the mag to reload a fresh one. By the time he got the rifle back up, the bad guy was down.

I've seen vids here of classes being held and people scanning very quickly and witnessed it in skill builders on occasion. IDK if they would be able to see anything as John mentions in the vid above.

Looking behind can also help orient someone, its not purely looking for additional threats. Can look for safe retreat for example, make sure you're not going to trip on something behind you.

Sounds like a person trained in USMC Pistol Table 1. The action is called "search and assist". You're not doing that action without a purpose--as it would look when you're on the range firing line. It's done while you aren't actively engaging a threat, and are looking for another to engage.  Nobody is training to double tap a target then scan the area while the target is still active--that makes no sense.

Having a second threat appear near or at a previous threat, like that guy at the sim, and being shot by them is just the totality of the circumstance.  After all incoming fire in a two-way range can come from more than one direction.